In reading this thead I was interested in the diversity of doper opinion on the issue of whether it was good and reasonable thing for a financially constrained college student to agree to engage in sexual intercourse for money. Granted, the scenario being discussed was at an absurdly high price being offered relative to the normal market price range for such services, but the core point remined the same. Is cash for sex OK?
Opinions ranged from variations of
“You won’t respect yourself in the morning/rest of your life” - to
“You’re being played” - to
“It’s an perfectly acceptable personal decision morally and ethically to trade use of your body for cash” - to the succinct
“Your little pussy is not the holy land, take the money and move on”
I have to admit that, to me, prostitution seems like a bad idea in the long run for a variety of reasons including disease risks and potentially dangerous working conditions, to say nothing of the potential complexities of having or maintaining intimate and loving relationships in your personal life while selling the use of your body for sex to strangers at the same time.
But all this is simply my opinion. I was going to respond to Otto’s argument below, but it was hard to formulate a logically coherent rationale as to why selling your body for sex was specifically less moral or good than selling the use of your muscles for other types of physical labor. So … what is wrong with being a whore?
There’s nothing inherently wrong with being a whore.
There’s also nothing inherently wrong with being a stripper.
I wouldn’t want my kids to grow up to be either, however. If they did, I’d feel I went wrong somewhere in raising my children. I’d consider myself a failure as a parent.
It’s all about wanting better for yourself or, in my example, your kids.
Some would say it’s bad for neighborhoods. It is bad, but only because it’s illegal. If it were legal, you’d have plenty of high class hookers in places you’d never know (except for the trail of cars around corner.)
It would follow that illegal prostitution leads to crime-ridden areas; therefore if it were legal, it might also follow that less crime would follow.
I wouldn’t wish for any of my kids to be strippers, but if that was their vocation, that’s their vocation. I wouldn’t consider myself a failure unless I had actively campaigned for them to be strippers. Methinks my duty as a parent would dictate another course of action.
I really am completely mystified by this. If there’s nothing wrong with either of these vocations, then why would your child’s choice to pursue one or the other mean you’re a bad parent? It’s like saying “there’s nothing wrong with being a computer programmer, or with working construction, but if my child grew up to be either I’d have failed as a parent.” If here’s nothing inherently wrong with being a whore or a stripper (not quite sure how strippers got mixed up into this), then why, if the person freely chooses to be one or the other, would it be “better” if they did something else for a living?
I have a friend who was formerly an “escort.” He made $300 for two hours and did nothing he didn’t want to do. I make $25.02 for two hours, do lots of things I don’t want to do and pay taxes on it to boot. Clients took him to a number of locales and coountries where I will probably never go, and all on their dime. He, his partner and their kids are all happy and healthy and none of them have suffered any negative consequences from his former career (except for one psycho ex-client who is being dealt with through the legal system). I have other buddies who are strippers who I’ve talked about on the boards before. They make up to $100 in tips for two hours of dancing and working the crowd, plus a fee from the venue, and do lap dances at $20 a pop for about 5 minutes. They’re happy and healthy and don’t do anything they don’t want to do either. Which I again compare to my $25.02 minus taxes for doing a shitty job that I hate. Financially they do better than I do and are as happy as I am so I can’t see how their free choice to pursue these opportunities means that “something went wrong” or that their parents were “failures.”
Our society disapproves of whores because of the Christian influence. Christian doctrine holds that people should only have sex with someone they are married to. Therefore, all other sex is sinful.
Even if you are not a Christian, every American grows up in a society filled with Christian influences, Christian assumptions, and Christian standards. These influence your ideas of what is “right” and what is not.
In addition, women dislike whores because they see them as competition: why should a man marry and support a woman, when he can get sex from whores?
Men dislike whores because they consider hiring them to be a mark of failure: “Real men don’t have to PAY for it!”
American society has become very schizophrenic about sex. We want to have it, but at the same time, we want to present ourselves as virtuous and pure. Whores are a reminder that we are NOT virtuous and pure, and that sex is ultimately NOT a grand, romantic ritual between two people who love each other (as we tell our children), but a mere animal urge. People HATE being reminded that, under all the veneer of civiliation, we’re just another species of critter.
I think there’s far more to it than Christian morals. Within the scope of my admittedly limited historical perspective, being a whore has never been a particularly dignified or desirable occupation in any society I can think of. Even in ancient Rome where it was not criminalized, prostitution was considered “low grade” and not something parents aspired to have their children pursue. I think your socio-biological arguments might have more merit.
The ‘everybody’s a whore’ argument works only if sex is no different from other activities.
If we were introduced at a Dopefest, would you shake my hand?
Would you touch my genitals?
Cupping a stranger's elbow in your hand against their will is not a crime. Cupping a stranger's breast in your hand against their will is IIRC sexual assault.
If a child is old enough to mow lawns and clean gutters, and sex is just another way to make money, then that child is old enough to have sex with the neighbors for money.
I know that as a young person growing up in the era of “free love,” most of my similarly-aged female friends today agree we SHOULD have sold it instead of giving it away.
Morality and legality arguments aside, I think I can say for certain that I’d never have sex for money. Years ago when I was just dating, I can remember how hard it was on me emotionally when the relationships broke up. I can’t imagine how I might have felt if I’d been sleeping with the guys I dated, but I expect it would have been worse.
To me, sex is the ultimate sharing of self. I never viewed it as a recreational activity and I still don’t. If I suddenly found myself unmarried, unemployed, and living in a cardboard box, I still don’t think I could trade sex for money. It just doesn’t work for me. And I don’t see it the same as doing any other job. There’s a difference between writing up a machining procedure for the main landing gear cylinder and getting naked with a stranger in search of some sweaty recreation. I’ll sell my knowledge, experience and judgement, but I’m not going to sell my self-respect. For me, that’s what it comes down to.
Personally, I have no problem with legalizing the sex trade. But I don’t want to be part of it. There are things I won’t do for money, and that’s one.
One additional aspect I’m surprised no one has mentioned is that the majority of street whores lead a pretty dismal life. And they don’t get into it because they like sex, but rather because they are desperate for money for one reason or another.
On a purely logical level, the problems are in logistics: Its illegal. it carries a lot of risks (disease, getting beat up). It doesn’t pay well at the bottom (but pays great at the top), etc.
However, the biggest issue is that most people can’t do it and respect themselves, and most people don’t respect people who choose to sell themselves for sex.
Now, I believe that whatever happens between two consenting adults in their business and if they want to exchange money for it fine. But consent to me implies that neither one “has to sell him/herself for drug money or to keep from getting beat up by a pimp.” Consent implies I do this because I choose to do it and I respect myself regardless. The respect part is hard to do with prostitution, but when it can be done, and you get rid of the logistical problems (which are, for the most part, easily solvable) - I’m fine with it.
(Have you guys seen the nice diamond earrings my husband gave me?)
On the subject of parenting, there are a range of professions I hope my children don’t pursue. Prosititute is on the list, because I think its hard to respect yourself (and have others respect you) and because its pretty much a short term career, retirement is seldom at 62 with a pension plan. Other things that I hope my children decide not to do: astronaut (I’d go nuts with worry). Policeman (same logic as astronaut), pediatric onocologist (talk about a depressing job). POTUS (difficult job, lots of stress, under a constant public microscope).
Sex is no different than other activities, except that humans have built up a mystique around sex which is deeper than any other mystique I can think of. But just because something has a mystique about it doesn’t mean that there’s any reason why it can’t be bartered.
Would I touch your genitals at a Dopefest? Not without your consent. Just like I wouldn’t attempt to have sex with someone without consent, whether money was involved or not. If we were in touch before the Dopefest and you said “hey Otto, grab my knob when we meet” then I’d absolutely have no problem doing it, because the two people involved agreed to it. I don’t see how your question is relevant to the discussion.
Touching another person in a non-sexual manner without consent is battery.
Children are legally unable to consent to sex and would thus be unable to consent to have sex for money. And to be purely technical, children can’t legally contract to mow lawns or baby-sit for money either.
This does raise the question: What do prostitutes do on vacation? Wear low heel shoes and stand up a lot? Actually would it be anyworse then some legal jobs. I worked for Boeing in the 1980s machining parts for cruise missles. It was a real moral dellema and I was able to rationalize my way out of it for a few years. I think having sex with strangers and getting paid for it would have been less morally ambiguous.
“Sexual morality is the trade unionism of the married.”
Brothels used to be quite common in America, esp. the American West, where the guys outnumbered the gals big time, so the smart gals moved out West and sold it big time. As more women came in and married more men, they chased the brothels and their inmates outta time. They called it ‘respectability’ and ‘morality’ but really it was just simple self-interest – didn’t want their men dumping them for some whore.
I don’t think Dopers are a normal cross-section on issues like this, but if you looked at where the real opposition to prostitution lies, it would be in all the mundane wives out their, and their men (who publicly would oppose prostitution even if they privately took every advantage of it).
