What's wrong with being an alcoholic?

The BBQ Pit
41

One of my mates went to Cambridge University (=Harvard or Yale) and got a 1st class degree.
He joined the police force on a graduate scheme, with accelerated promotion.
He was a good chessplayer with plenty of game-playing friends, and married a decent woman.

Then he became an alcoholic.

He lost his job, his wife couldn’t take it and divorced him and he dropped out of chess.
Now he lives in council accomodation and each day just wanders the streets.
He’s ruined his liver and is expected to die by the time he’s 40.

I think that answers the question.

42

You just described one of our neighbors, except she leeches off her roomate instead of a relative.

43

I think if you drink because it’s fun, that’s one thing. I think it’s possible to get too used to it and careless with it that you have a problem that you eventually realize and deal with… all without it really making sense to call you an alcoholic. In fact, MOST people seem to use drugs, develop a problem with drugs, and then decide on their own to stop or limit their use.

However, the worst alcoholics seem to be people who drink to be, or because they are, miserable: they abuse the drug as an escape, and it turns into a day to day priority (for the brief time which I tried smoking, I got a taste of this: even if you do other things, have other things on your plate, you still consciously and unconsciously are constantly working towards arranging your next smoke. THAT’s addiction).

Alcohol seems powerful to turn the former into the latter in SOME cases, but that doesn’t mean that the former is just the same as the latter (which is the dogma that AA preaches).

Case in point, a lot of the hard time I have with my wife over this issue is because in her family, drugs and alocohol ruined people, and they seemed to drink to the point where it caused a lot of misery.

My mom occasionally had drinking binges (which for her metabolism meant more than a single glass of wine: any more than that and she was near passing out), and because of her diabetes and fragile blood sugars, it was terrible for her health. I didn’t even find out that she had a problem until recently, when she had an episode where drank in the morning, then passed out and was taken to the hospital. It was tough, and she had to get treatment, but the thing was that the problem was both limited and up until the final year, pretty secret, not having much of an affect on the family. She really worked hard in treatment, and hasn’t had a relapse.

My wife, however, feels shocked and terrified about my mother: she thought my family was “safe” from alcoholism, and to find it there felt like a betrayal to her. The problem is, I have a hard time seeing her fears being fully legitimate. Her mother used alcohol and heroin while she was growing up and neglected her in all sorts of ways. Her dad has been an alcoholic mess his entire life, drunk most of the time. Her brother may be starting down the exact same road. All of that is WORLDS worse than anything related to my mother and father (who knew about my mom’s problem but kept it private until it really got bad and common). But still, to my wife, it’s all the same. She suspects that my mom is sneaking drinks all the time, doesn’t trust her. My mom knows that this lack of trust is her fault, but at this point doesn’t know what she can do to prove herself or gain back that trust. My mom I guess COULD be drinking secretly, but it wouldn’t be easy to conceal (both because of the house she lives in, her lifestyle, and how it would very noticeably affect her health), and she still goes to all sorts of support groups (mostly not because she feels she needs them, but because she feels like my wife would see it as a bad sign if she stopped)

Not all addictions are the same. How you define alcoholic is hard to nail down, but even so, not all alcoholisms are the same. Some people can quash. AA says that once you have a problem, you will never be rid of it. That probably even be true for some alcoholics. But not all, or if so, then alcoholism has to be redefined.

44

I lived with an alcoholic for two years. She was one of the sweetest, most loving and talented people I’ve ever met, and she understood me right to my core.
She made her living as an artist, and was highly respected and sought after.
There is also no bad thing that you’ve named in this thread that she didn’t do. No, she didn’t kill anyone, but it was almost miraculously so, since she loved to drive when she was completely plastered.
I gave up on her, because I just didn’t want to expend the effort to learn how to live with it. It was the most heartbreaking, disappointing, relationship I’ve ever experienced. But for her, life was utter and complete hell, and remains so. I guess there’s nothing wrong with being an alcoholic if you don’t mind wrecking your life.

45

It’s probably true that most people drink but not to the level of being referred to as an alcoholic, and it’s also true that alot of drinking occurs in college, but it’s not true that ‘everyone does it’, etc. Something happens as one drinks more and more…they quit hanging with non drinkers (and the non drinkers quit hanging with them) and it just begins to appear to the drinker that ‘everyone does it’.

I think you described yourself as a heavy drinker, and you seem convinced that everyone in New York drinks. A lot. I don’t live in New York, but I’m quite sure that is not a true statment. It probably just appears that way to you because of the crowd you hang with- the heavy drinkers.

Heavy drinkers and non drinkers don’t hang out too much together because the can’t/don’t enjoy each other’s company. The drinkers feel constrained and gulity and the non drinkers just get annoyed. At least, that has been my experience.

I found it interesting, too, that you decried the ‘bullshit programs’ that say everyone will wind up in hell for drinking, yet you find blackouts, as opposed to drunken hazes, scary becasue you are afraid you stabbed someone. You said you try control your drinking to just get the drunken hazes and not the blackouts (and the possible murder!?). That’s odd.

46

It boils down to this:
Alcoholism (as defined in its problem state, and by frequency rather than, say, the amount consumed or the severity of consequence in one instance) is widely accepted as more of a disease than a hobby. Risky hobbies entail risk, as in there being a chance that the hobbyist will come out just fine, as opposed to the more or less assured deterioration of mind, body and ability to stop that comes with alcoholism. There needs to be a distinction between that, and someone who merely drinks or parties a lot. I don’t think anyone here is saying that frequent drinks and alcoholism are the same thing, or that alcoholics are automatically non-functioning members of society.
Also, alcohol consumption directly affects the way a person interacts with others, which makes it much more of an issue than risky sports or even smoking. Most any person who had an alcoholic parent (myself included) can attest to some of the horrors involved and can confirm that there is indeed a negative affect on many lives other than that of the alcoholic. I mean, when my brother and I were young, we knew our father was an alcoholic but whether we immediately tied his random rampages and outbursts when he destroyed our things or knocked us around or called everyone terrible things to a drinking session or not, those things undeniably took their toll on everyone.
Now, in the specific case where someone is an alcoholic but really not doing any damage to others (pretty difficult if you’re not a recluse), and only minimal damage to himself (whatever you judge ‘minimal’ to be), sure, it might not be a huge deal, and advising him to stop may not be an urgent priority. But why not do it? Just because it’s annoying? Because the person may already be aware? If you know someone has a problem, why tell yourself “well, it’s not a life-or-death situation, so I’ll just ignore it”? Unless the person has made it clear to you to butt out, and it’s not worth it to you to contest that, I don’t see a problem with expressing disagreement - it doesn’t have to mean instant and constant badgering and verbal abuse of the alcoholic.

So. at least some of the confusion in this thread comes from confusion as to what defines alcoholism. To my knowledge *real *alcoholism is negative to at least some significant extent, it affects the lives of others, and I see no convincing reason not to oppose it, especially with someone you love. An individual’s chosen *method *of opposing it, how quickly/often he does it, and whether he’s successful or not, is up to him and circumstance.

47

Wow, someone is pissed off because he read posts where someone who had admitted to blacking out several times, driving while blacked out, cheating while blacked out, was told to maybe stop drinking? Don’t you have anything controversial to be outraged about? People caring about someone who is showing some warning signs, how evil.

No, having blackouts does not mean you’re an alcoholic, though many alcoholics have them. Blackouts usually occur because a person is drinking heavily very fast. Whether or not you’re an alcoholic, if you black out, you have some dangerous drinking habits and maybe need to rethink your drinking.

Not everyone experiences blackout, and people who do have them may be predisposed to them. This article posits that they might have damaged their brains to make them more susceptible to future black outs. Wouldn’t that give you pause? It might also be due to genetics. Either way, I would be very wary of getting that drunk ever again.

All things considered, how many bad things have to happen to a person while drinking before they should reconsider it? If it enrages you that people find such behavior (DWI, cheating) worthy of interventionist comments, I have to wonder why so defensive?

(Fixed coding–Veb)

48

The problem is the drinkers are generally more visible and they seem like they have more fun. You rarely find a group of hot chicks screaming “yeaaaaa! I’m SOBER!!” My school was huge on fraternities and thats where everyone ended up on the weekends. Yes, there were people who didn’t drink (we even had a couple in my fraternity) but for the most part, I didn’t know too many people who didn’t drink at all.

Well obviously not every single New Yorker drinks. But a lot of young NYers do. And there’s a certainly a shitload of bars and clubs open to 4am to facilitate them.

:rolleyes: No dumbass, I’m not afraid of murdering someone during a blackout. I just don’t like the idea of running around for an hour and having no idea what I did. A friend of mine woke up one time and the only reason he knew he was in a fight was because his face was all fucked up. That’s a bit much.

49

Why not? This is not a facetious question. If you drive a car duing a black out, you could very well murder someone. Even if you never drink and drive, a lot of people get violent during black outs. The whole point is, your inhibitions are down, you have no idea what you’re doing, and then you can’t remember it. I admit it’s not some sort of inevitability or even likely, but calling someone a dumbass for even suggesting it seems a bit strong.

Nice negation of your above point.

50

Wow.

Let me sum up the previous posts here.

If you black out, you’re halfway to retardation, if it happens more than once you’ll probably drool on yourself.

All alcoholics do the following: lie, cheat, steal, break the law constantly, fight people for no good reason, beat their girlfriends, beat their wives, beat their husbands, beat their children, beat their parents, vomit everywhere, lose their jobs every second week, black out constantly, break everything they touch, sometimes kill people, pee in the closet, pee in bed, pee on their roommates, etc, have sex with unsavory people, fuck dogs, fuck cats, fuck sheep, fuck bushes, burden their friends, burden their families, burden society, forget everything, accomplish nothing, get evicted once a month, start fires, kill puppies, rob liquor stores, murder people while blacked out, dine and dash, take candy from babies, shoot paintballs at people, pull fire alarms, panhandle for booze change, drink every waking hour of their lives, seek nothing other than the next buzz, let themselves go physically and hygienically, stink, refuse to bathe, fart a lot, and vote Republican. Well, the last one might be true.

“Blacking out” means that the brain stops being able to adequately record new memories, it is not advisable by any stretch of the imagination, but is also not a sign that one needs to be fitted with a helmet.

As for the rest, most alcoholics exhibit at least a few of the above mentioned traits. There have been some quite passioned replies here that have indicated this. Do all alcoholics exhibit all of these responses? Certainly not. Are there many, many people who function just fine in the world, that exhibit one, two, or none of these symptoms? Absolutely.

People seem to think that they don’t know any alcoholics, since they know no wife-beating, day-drinking, failures that fit their perceived mold of an alcoholic. More people work with a functional alcoholic than they know. Far, far more.

Demonization of the monster types of alcoholics is probably appropriate. Thinking that only people that make themselves known as alcoholics are the only ones that need attention, is very misguided. I have no proof that the monster alcoholics started out as just alcohol-dependent people, but it stands to reason. The addiction needs to be recognized before it becomes such a menace. This requires two things, recognition of alcoholism earlier in life, and acknowledgement that early alcoholics can and should be rehabilitated.

More and more people are realizing at an earlier age that they might be an alcoholic, or might have strong alcoholic tendencies. Many people in this thread have painted all alcoholics as hopeless bastards that the world is better without. I’m sure that will help things.:rolleyes:

51

<post snipped and slight hijack ahead>

Here is a one on one comparison from the list you gave to AAs questions:

  • narrowing of the drinking repertoire (involving the establishment of daily drinking patterns and selective choices of alcoholic beverages)

AA Asks: Have you ever switched from one kind of drink to another in the hope that this would keep you from getting drunk?

  • Salience of alcohol-seeking behavior

AA Asks: Do you ever try to get “extra” drinks at a party because you do not get enough?

  • increased tolerance to alcohol’s effects

AA Asks: The 12 questions do not ask about this.

  • repeated withdrawal symptoms

AA Asks: The 12 questions do not ask about this directly. Though the eye-opener question fits (see below, specifically the ‘shaking’) 8

  • drinking to relieve or avoid withdrawal symptoms

AA Asks: Have you had to have an eye-opener upon awakening during the past year? Do you need a drink to get started, or to stop shaking? This is a pretty sure sign that you are not drinking “socially.”

  • subjective awareness of a compulsion to drink

AA Asks: Do you tell yourself you can stop drinking any time you want to, even though you keep getting drunk when you don’t mean to? 9

  • Reinstatement of established drinking patterns following a period of abstinence.

AA Asks: Have you ever decided to stop drinking for a week or so, but only lasted for a couple of days?

*These seven characteristics of alcohol dependence lie at the heart of all currently used and proposed diagnostic criteria

The questions AA asks but do not correspond to questions on the list:

–Do you wish people would mind their own business about your drinking-- stop telling you what to do?

–Do you envy people who can drink without getting into trouble?

–Have you had problems connected with drinking during the past year?

–Has your drinking caused trouble at home?

–Have you missed days of work or school because of drinking?

–Have you ever felt that your life would be better if you did not drink?

–Do you have “blackouts”?

So, out of the 7 questions you listed, AA covers 5 of them directly though one AA question (eye opener) covers two from the list you provided. So AA asks 6 out of the 7 and then some.

The next statement in the 12 Questions is:

So, AA is pretty close to the definition of Alcoholism you provided. Though this is also meant for Excalibre since he brought up the idea that AA ‘defines some things as “alcoholism” that don’t meet the standard definition of the term.’. Note, the seven questions on that list deal directly with drinking while the AA questions deal directly with drinking and the results of the drinking. The questions that AA asks, which the provided list does not, deal directly with the effects after the drinking stops. The provided list covers just drinking behaviors, not the repercussions from those behaviors.

<end hijack>

The problem with being an alcoholic is that, for most alcoholics it affects others directly in very negative ways.

If you break a leg sky diving, it’s an accident. If you break a leg every time you skydive and you continue to skydive it’s a problem. If you break a leg every time (or even most of the time) you go skydiving you probably ought to rethink the whole skydiving thing.

Same thing with alcohol. Most alcoholics cause all sorts of problems for themselves and other people. There are a few alcoholics who can keep drinking and not cause problems for themselves or other. Good for them. Most alcoholics, however, leave all kinds of wreckage in their wake. They hurt family and friends. They cause accidents. They lie to keep drinking. They steal to get drinking money. They don’t pay bills*. They do stupid shit because people tend to do stupid shit when drunk. And they keep repeating the same stupid shit over and over.

Slee

  • Not all alcoholics do all the above. The stupid stuff alcoholics do will vary, sometimes really amazing ways.
52

I was under the impression Ca3799 thought I was litterally afraid of going around stabbing people. While I suppose it could happen, I would be more concerned about what you described - getting into a car or saying or doing something else stupid or violent (less violent than stabbing).
The reason it’s so hard to diagnose an alchoholic is that we as a culture really do give a mixed message about heavy drinking. One minute we criticize people for being alchoholics, the next we cheer them for being able to party hard.

Here’s what I consider to be a difference between an alchoholic and someone who just likes to drink socially very often. An alchoholic is just focused on getting drunk. He’s the guy passed out midway through the party or who can’t show up to work the next day. The heavy drinker can pace himself so he doesn’t make an ass of himself.

The question is what do people do who DON’T drink? Do you still go out on weekends or do you sit home bored? What are your thoughts on young adult drinking culture?

53

Well, not necessarily. A subset of alcoholics (true, dependent, chronic, self-identified, etc) are quite high functioning and pace themselves extremely well, without passing out drunk or missing a lot of days. I was one, my father and brother were both like that. I could be in a blackout drunk, and people whjo knew me well wouldn’t think I was any more than buzzed.
Many alcoholics have a huge capacity for liquor, hold it very well, and regard those who pass out as rank amateurs.
Not saying that chronic drinking can’t be incredibly destructive to both the drinker and many areas of their life. Just that, don’t assume someone who holds their alcohol well does not by definition have a real problem. Being a heavy drinker doesn’t always correlate to being an alcoholic, but passing out and getting badly hungover doesn’t always correlate to being one either. Just sayin’.

I don’t drink any more, and certainly don’t sit at home twiddling my thumbs. I go out plenty and don’t mind being around alcohol (just not in my house, I’m not very comforytable with that.) Mind you, I’m older and me & my friends are past the weekend partying stage.
If I had a kid who drank a lot, I wouldn’t like it much but I would understand that for many, it’s part of growing up, being stupid and learning limits. Doesn’t necessarily indicate a problem.
Given my family history though, I’d take a closer look if I had a kid who started getting into drinking-related trouble on a regular basis. If not alcoholism, it would certainly indicate stupidity and lack of judgement.

54

Now that I think about, true alchoholics do have a massive tolerance.

55

Until their liver gives out…!

56

This thread is maddening. Why someone would want to rationalize an addiction to a toxic substance is beyond me. Other than perhaps they’re wrestling with an inner voice saying maybe they’re an alcoholic and don’t want to face it or are trying to make excuses to continue.

Alcohol addiction is awful. Nobody wants to be an alkie. Just about every true alcoholic (IME) wishes they could drink normally but can’t. When a fifth of vodka a day is not enough that would clearly denote an addiction.

I realize alcohol is a big part of some people’s lives. It’s everywhere. Some people can have one or two and go on with their evening or whatever. I couldn’t. Regularly downing 5-6 Long Islands is not only bad for you physically, but quite expensive as well.

I think some people live as the Queen of Denial.

57

Heh. Back in college (mid 70’s) I was that era’s equivalent of the “designated driver” because all my friends considered me the guy who could hold his liquor so well!

They’d be hammered on two or three beers, and give me the keys to the car, and I’d drive us all home, having consumed at least 4 times what they did. <<shudder>>

Being a practicing alcoholic is no picnic. Being a recovering alcoholic is quite liberating, thank you.

58

I don’t drink much - I’ll have one or [rarely] two drinks if there’s no chance I’ll have to drive afterwards. Haven’t drunk more than that since I was 16 and woke up one morning with only a few disconnected memories of the night before. I do the same things that my drinking friends and relatives do. I’ve always gone to the same restaurants, bars, parties, BBQ’s etc. I just don’t drink alcohol. Why would I have to sit home and twiddle my thumbs? It’s not like my friends (even the heavy drinkers) are going out solely to get drunk - if that was all they were interested in they could sit home and drink.

59

I once gave a little presentation on alcoholics to an organization similar to Rotary, although it was not Rotary. Their meetings were held in various restaurant/bar combinations around town. In course of the talk I casually opined that if their noon meetings weren’t held in bars they might very well suffer a loss in attendance.

I was not invited back.

60

Here’s the bottom line for me: if I got a DWI, or screwed up a relationship with someone I really love, or had a history of black outs, or spent a significant portion of my discretionary income on booze, I’d stop drinking. Arguing that any of the above is not a big deal sounds like denial to me.

I rarely drink. I don’t sit home and twiddle my thumbs because very few of my friends are into drinking. Believe it or not, there are whole sectors of society who are not that interestined in getting hammered on a regular basis. We lead rich, active lives, I assure you, and probably have better driving records and livers than you do.