Hey, I did all those except the DWI thing! (Well I drove plenty, just never got caught.) :rolleyes:
Mind you, I can honestly say I was never in denial. I knew right from the start, when it started to become compulsive and at times solitary, that I was an alcoholic. It just took me years to actually get off my ass & do something about it.
I’ve always had a hard time believing the denial-to-self aspect. I’m sure it happens like that for many people, but never for me or several others I know. We knew.
If alcohol consumtion alone created alcoholics, there would be a lot more of them around. It is, of course, a prerequisite, but alcoholics aren’t created automatically when a person goes over a certain level.
To look at alcoholism without pondering why and how people drink is pretty useless. I only know of one definition that covers it (IMO): When the negative consequences are greater than the positive. And there are many positive effects.
- I think when people get drunk because of a negative reason (they’re depressed, sad, angry) it’s far worse than when a person gets drunk while being happy, or at least content.
- Don’t underestimate that alcohol many times works as the grease on the axis of relationship (all types). This is of course a social construct, but none the less, it works.
- I have a few friends that should be classified as OCD if they bothered. Now, their diagnose is alcoholism. I believe that alcoholism is just one type of manifestation of a bigger underlying problem. I think it’s easy to hook someone with OCD.
- There’s reason suggesting that almost all addiction deals with people who self-medicate. There’s something “wrong” and suddenly, they find the “cure”. For some it’s a downer (like pot or alcohol), for others it’s an upper (coke or speed).
The judgemental attitude that pops up and says: “If you have more than two mixed drinks a night, every night, you’re on your way to becomming an alcoholic” is not very smart, coming from a bunch of people claiming to fight ignorance.
What do I do?
I go out with friends. We get something to eat, go to the movies, museums, parks, clubs, whatever. We sit and we talk. We dance, joke around. When I’m not out on weekends, I read, I play around with my graphics, I embroider, shop, listen to music, whatever.
I agree with you that there is a mixed message, but the idea that someone can’t go out and have fun without booze is ridiculous. I don’t drink-I’m on meds, I have a long family history of alcoholism on BOTH my mother’s and father’s sides, and having OCD, I’m more susceptible to addiction. Besides, on the rare occassion that I do have a drink, it just makes me feel sleepy and flushed. I am the world’s easiest drunk-one glass of wine and I can barely keep my eyes open.
Honestly, if we’re going to go out and consume a substance to have fun, I’d rather it be caffeine than booze.
What about if people get drunk because it’s what their social circle does for fun? msmith537 seems to have a hard time figuring out what non-drinkers do without alcohol as recreation. Does that count as a positive or a negative reason?
I think if you need alcohol to grease your axis, you might be a little too dependent on it. Is it judgemental of me to say that a person should be able to run his relationships without booze?
Maybe that something “wrong” is that the person needs alcohol to lubricate his social interactions? I’m pretty sure that physically, it’s a depressant, no matter what ostensible effect it has.
Who said this?
I think someone saying that people need alcohol to have the social life they want, and that’s OK, is not very smart either.
You, in this very post.
Look around you. Take a good look. Now answer me if it’s uncommon to see people from a workplace wind down together with a few beers, late Friday afternoon. Check out a wedding reception where people raise their glasses and toast the bride and groom. Look at that first serious date in a new relationship. Two people meet at a party, take a liking to each other and decides to have dinner together. Splitting a bottle of wine will not be strange either.
None of this means that having alcohol as the foundation (which would be the axis in itself, the spokes and the rim of the wheel) is a good thing. And I’m sure we can do without it. But the use of alcohol in certain social situations is quite heavily ingrained in our society. I’m not sure it’s a bad thing either.
That’s kind of a weird question.
I’ve never taken a drink, but I have been known to go out on weekends. When I was young and single, I had a whole lot of friends who also didn’t drink (for various reasons, or else they were very light drinkers) and we would go out and have fun doing the usual sorts of things. Or I also had friends who drank and sometimes went out with them, too, but I’ve never liked bars a lot.
Now that I’m old and married and stuff, my husband and I go out almost every weekend. We go out to eat, hang out at bookstores, go to the movies, see friends, whatever. I also have some interests and hobbies, so when I am sitting at home, I’m not bored.
I live in a town with a large youth drinking culture, and while it doesn’t particularly bother me directly, I do worry about some of them; girls being sexually assaulted while incapacitated or unconscious isn’t uncommon, and lately there’s been a sort of rash of people getting sick from drugged drinks–often apparently at random and for no reason (as opposed to someone looking to date rape an acquaintance or something, though that happens too). I would prefer it if the partiers would stop a little sooner…
I’m not sure if you mean this seriously!
I don’t drink (apart from toasts at weddings).
On weekends I play chess, eat out, read books, travel to see my mates and read books to their kids, play computer games and look after my elderly parents (who have retired nearby).
I don’t imagine an alcoholic would be doing any of the above as successfully as me (particularly caring for friends + family members).
I also spend the extra money I save from not drinking. 
I am neither a doctor, nor a licensed counselor. I haven’t earned a medical degree, nor have I attended classes that make me an expert in addiction. All opinions by me on this subject are based on actual experience.
I am what is often thought of as a functional alcoholic. I make no bones about it, nor do I feel any shame in it. I drink more often than is “normal”, and when I drink it’s often in a higher quantity than is considered “normal”.
Most often I drink at home as it keeps me from causing havoc to the public. If I’m out drinking, I pay the $10 to get a cab. My favorite haunts are all within 2 miles of home, so the cost is never an issue.
While at home, I’ve never started a fight because I was drunk. Most often it’s a pretty good buzz then sleep, sometimes on the weekends I go a little further. In either case, if I drink, I know I’m over .10. Most often over that.
I don’t have DUI’s hanging over my head, never been in a position of going to jail for being disorderly, and don’t have any health problems over it. A few years ago I was on a medication that required testing for liver function. It threw all the numbers out of whack. The med was changed, and the numbers still weren’t coming down. I started to think it was time to quit drinking.
Then I was put on a 3rd med. For almost a year now, the liver numbers are all normal. According to the blood tests, my liver is as healthy as an 18 year old Mormon’s.
I don’t miss work. There are days I get to work with what could be either a hangover, or just a lack of rest. Tired, sore and red eyes. In the past year I’ve never heard anything even hinted about it. I’m coherent, do my job well, and never had it hinted that it’s an issue. I don’t steal from my employer and always get the job done. My performance reviews are always at the highest levels.
About 12 years ago I was in the office of a PA to get a medical card for a job. He asked about alcohol use and what was the most I would drink on a consistent basis. At the time Jordan was still playing and the Bulls were in the Finals. I told him that 2 nights prior a friend and I split a 12 pack watching the pre-game and game itself.
He mentioned that 3 beers was enough to make him pass out and call in sick the next day. He failed me because I was obviously out of control in my drinking for having 6 beers in a single night.
That night being 5 hours, with a steak dinner in the middle of it. I’m 6’4", 250#. I wasn’t exactly stumbling around.
But the alcoholism was based on his experience with drinking and his tolerance. It had nothing to do with my biology, tolerance or experience. I had been drinking long enough to know I wasn’t turning into a sloppy drunk from 6 beers in the course of a night. But he declared it to be a problem, so I had a problem.
There is a huge difference in these terms. Alcoholic, drunk, addicted, dependant, out of control, etc. One isn’t the same as the other. And each is independant within itself based on the actions of the person.
My drinking doesn’t hurt anyone. My wife has a husband that earns a living and actively does things to make her feel special and loved. My employer has a worker that gets the job done, my community isn’t inconvenienced (sp?) by me driving drunk or wasting police resources, and though I have excellent health insurance, the health care system isn’t wasting a dime on health issues arising from drinking.
So again, I may be medically an alcoholic, but I don’t have any of the problems that are typically cited for the disease. At least yet. I know it’s a gamble and it may catch up to me in the future, but for the last decade I’ve been able to keep my shit together.
In my case, I have a physical addiction to a chemical, but it doesn’t control my every action. Maybe I’ve won my own little lottery in that I can drink a lot without suffering the stereotypical downfalls. And maybe I eventually will. But after all these years, I’ve proven that alcoholism isn’t a guaranteed ticket to skid row.
Of course, the meds I take may have a huge impact on not letting the drinking get to the point that I do end up suffering all the tragedies associated with addiction. Maybe they’re just delaying it. But either way, it would show that alcoholism, in and of itself, doesn’t destroy lives.
I know plenty of people that quit drinking and are more miserable than they were when drinking.
On the other hand, I know more people that are much happier since they stopped drinking. The point is, being alcoholic isn’t the same for one person as it is for another. It isn’t necessarily a death sentence nor a paved road to hell.
Sorry to ramble, and pick it apart as you will. Just my thoughts.
You sound more like a heavy drinker to me, duffer, than an alcoholic. My experience as a no-longer-drinking alcoholic, after nearly 30 years of watching people try to get sober, is that people who are true alcoholics are seldom able to control their drinking for any length of time. Sooner or later the drinking escalates, and as it does, the problems that accompany it also escalate.
But if you can drink without problems, more power to you. That’s what basically every person I’ve seen seek help for drinking for 29 years has wanted, to be able to drink without getting into trouble. For me, and for the real alcoholics I know, that just isn’t possible without not drinking at all.
But I know another guy like you – yes, he drinks a lot, every day, 365 days a year. But he’s also great at his job, the nicest guy in the world with a million friends, exercises a lot every day and is in great physical shape, bought a place a block from his favorite bar so he doesn’t ever have to drive drunk, and throws the best parties in a city already famous for its partying. Some may say he’s an alcoholic, but at this point he’s a productive member of society and his drinking isn’t causing him any physical or employment problems or problems for his friends and family.
So it’s not my job to suggest that because someone drinks X amount every day, they have a problem with alcohol. That’s a decision for each person to make, if and when they decides it’s affecting their life negatively. Same with you – I wouldn’t presume to tell you that you’re an alcoholic simply based on how much you drink. That’s not an accurate gauge of alcoholism, strangely enough. I’ve known alcoholics who drank a fifth a day, and, memorably, one self-identified alcoholic who only drank twice a year but didn’t like what it did to her when she did. If drinking doesn’t cause you problems, more power to you. Most of us who drink too much aren’t that lucky.
That’s why holding up the rare person who can drink a lot without problems as an example of why it’s okay to be an alcoholic is a dangerous trap to fall into – because it’s so much rarer than the drunk who abuses his family, his employer, his body, and the world around him. That’s far, far more common than the successfully drinking alcoholic.
duffer, there’s certainly not a one size fits all definition of an alcoholic. And you’re certainly not playing the denial game. I hope nobody wags a finger at you, honestly. If it’s not a problem for you, and not a problem for your family, then…it’s not a problem!
My father was all of that. He did die of liver cancer at 64, though. The only cancer anyone on either side of the family can think of for generations back; undoubtedly 50 years of almost daily drinking did him in. He was otherwise alarmingly healthy and fit. Biked and played squash right up until he got sick.
Mind you we all die of something, and perfectly healthy people with no bad habits can die younger than “they should” all the time.
Mama Tiger, nobody has to tell me how lucky I am (if that is what I am) to be in this situation. I’ve gone for 6 months literally drinking every night, then go a couple of days with no signs of withdrawal. Then another 6 months straight. And that 6 pack night was an anomoly. Usually that’s the point where I’m ready to start partying. Getting the carb primed, as it were.
I’ve seen how drinking can destroy lives. I’ve seen it simply because my drinking tends to lead me to hang out with drinkers at a higher rate than other’s. IOW, because of my drinking, I tend to know more drinkers than “regular” folk. Nobody will ever be able to argue that drinking too much is benign for everyone. There are serious problems that alcoholism can lead to.
I didn’t mean to imply drinking too much is harmless. I hope nobody interprets it that way.
Yes, I’m a heavy drinker. Hell, I could halve my consumption and be considered a heavy drinker. Based on the medical definition and conventional wisdom, though, I am an alcoholic.
My point (as I should have made more clear) was the OP is correct in the idea he was trying to propose (at least the way I interpreted it). Being alcoholic isn’t, in and of itself, a bad thing.
The problems associated with “problem drinkers” is very severe. I can (but won’t) name 3 people I’ve known that drink far less than me, but have had their, and their loved one’s, lives destroyed by drink.
Being an alcoholic isn’t a bad thing. It’s destroying yourself and people around you that is a problem. Be it any drug.
At least, that’s what I took the OP to mean. If I was wrong, disregard everything posted so far. I was just trying to point out that being an alcoholic doesn’t mean wonton destruction and misery to everyone involved.
That was a bit too honest. Time for another beer. 
Like I said, just because I have no ill health effects from drinking now doesn’t mean I won’t in the future. I know the drinking I do can’t be beneficial to my health, and someday I’ll have to quit. Just because I’m still healthy now doesn’t mean I’ll advocate heavy drinking.
After over 15 years of pretty much daily drinking to excess (whatever that definition is), I have almost half my life spent as a heavy drinker. My main concern, of course, is my liver. It’s the most susceptible organ and usually the first warning sign. Of course, the pancreas and kidneys can be an issue, but usually it’s the liver that raises the red flag. And again, with the regular testing, the liver is functioning fine. The first indication that it isn’t will give me serious pause to think about quitting.
As an aside, I’m not looking for medical advice, but I’m curious if any of our docs can expound on this issue. This can’t be good for my liver, but it’s not causing any ill effects. Yet, I know, but after 15 years there should be some indication of damage.
Anyway, I’m sorry to hear about your father bonobo. I know it’s hard to lose a parent. I hope the best for you and yours.
No, I really don’t think so. I think you are misinterpreting the word “need.” I dated an alcoholic who could not function in a social setting with strangers without alcohol being around, period. He tended bar after he quit so that he could still have a social life. That is someone who NEEDED alcohol to grease his social wheels. What you’re saying below is something different.
:dubious:
Are you saying the people in the above situations could not do what they’re doing without booze to grease things up? If so, yeah, I think they have a problem. If the booze just makes it more fun, or makes parts of it easier, then no.
First of all, just because something is “ingrained in our society” does not make it good per se. Also, I don’t think you’ve made the case that alcohol is the “foundation” of the abovementioned relationships. If associations begun while using alcohol don’t quickly broaden their foundations, they are unlikely to become good relationships.
[/QUOTE]
All alcoholics do the following: lie, cheat, steal, break the law constantly, fight people for no good reason, beat their girlfriends, beat their wives,… stink, refuse to bathe, fart a lot, and vote Republican. Well, the last one might be true.
[QUOTE]
thats not true i know plenty of alcoholics who vote democratic…
i would have to say that i disagree wih the concept that being an alcoholic is viewed bad, or worse that being addicted to anything else, and with the idea that alcoholism is “socially unacceptable.” while geting drunk may be more dangerous than breaking your leg, i dont think society sees it that way.
maybe one day alcoholism was unacceptable, but from my understanding, and observation alcoholism today is growing to be more of a recreational, and acceptable thing than anything else, exspecially binge drinking.
its common knowledge that when your 16 “everyone drinks” right? well today its becoming more and more true. im 16, and i no longer even go out at night to drink. i am perfectly content drinking alone in my room like a 50 yr old alcoholic. i know this is bad but i know plenty of other kids at my scholl who are in the same boat, and have no problem with it because it is just something everyone does.
Rubystreak, this isn’t directed at you, but I should mention that in social situations, booze isn’t a need for me. I can function just as well sober as I can with a few drinks in strange settings.
I love going into situations where I don’t know anyone. It gives me a chance to meet new people. Booze, no booze, I always have a good time. IRL, people get to meet me, not a post on a message board.
And the best way, IMO, to develop social skills isn’t by getting drunk, it’s by throwing yourself into the fire and adapting to those you meet there. The booze is just an enhancement. When it becomes a pre-requisite you need to step back and take stock. Of course, that’s easy for me to say considering I feel comfortable in just about any social situation. I also can see where a few drinks can be needed in a new setting.
But I’ve seen profiling where the need to drink in a new situation means you’re at high risk of being alcoholic. Forget the fact that for centuries alcohol has been part of these situations. Forget the fact that drinking has been, for centuries, part of social gatherings.
It’s ingrained as a social commonplace. It’s been a staple for years and years and years. But the loudest voices for decades tell us it’s wrong to incorporate drinking in social settings.
Most often (God forgive me and I hate to give ammo to some people) by Christians. That conveniently forget about Jesus, wine, drinking at the Last Supper.
Sorry for the tangent. I won’t delete it, but keep in mind that for a long time people drank nothing but alcoholic beverages because they couldn’t drink the water. Ale and wine in Europe are the biggest ones that come to mind.
Breakfast lunch and dinner. People were snockered for the better part of the day, yet still managed to keep society rolling along.
They had drunks, sure, but the other people that drank all day somehow managed to keep everything, tick-tick-ticking along. Drinking too much (whatever that means) doesn’t mean a life of destitution.
Well, I don’t think anyone will question your age.
Back in the 1970’s, cops used to drive you home if they caught you driving drunk. It’s a bit different these days.
But if you have the insight and experience to know what’s best for you, have at it. We have another thread around here somewhere defending a 17 year old for smoking pot because he knows better than his parents. So I can’t really see saying you’re wrong in your choice.
Just keep in mind that while you’re invincible, nobody else around you is. Drink all you want, just be sure nobody is negatively affected by it. At your age, I’m sure you have the ability to determine what is safe and unsafe use of alcohol.
By the way, see that <SHIFT> key? Use it.
Most people who are alcoholics will claim that they drinking doesn’t cause problems. Being rather self-centered on average they really think that if the narrow minded people around them would just stop harping on the drinking there wouldn’t be a problem.
You’ve sounded defensive throughout this thread, and now you ask this question. Hopefully, it’s nothing more serious than being so young that you’re still stuck in the stage where you believe your life’s experiences thus far encompass what the entire world has to offer, but either way you must realize that the dichotomy you describe is WRONG, WRONG.
FWIW, this is true for the majority. For everything I’ve posted here it’s knowing I’m in a minority. I in no way mean to detract from what is, for many, a serious problem. Just to clarify.
Hey, I like to go out drinking and party hard. A lot. I don’t like 1) hurting or endangering people I care about (including myself), 2) getting sick or massively hungover, 3) losing my job. If drinking and partying means risking one of the other options, then I cut back on the drinking and partying. My sense is that a true alchoholic is unable to exercise that restraint.
I think people can become psychologically addicted to social drinking which is a little different from physical addiction to the alchohol itself. It’s like “beer goggles”. When you’re out drinking with a bunch of friends, in the dim light of a bar or club at 2 am, everyone seems more fun, better looking and more interesting.
When they say “everyone drinks” they usually mean they go to a friends kegger or something. Drinking by yourself is a pretty strong indicator of being an alchoholic because it’s the alchohol you’re craving, not the social aspect of drinking.
You are correct about alchoholism as being viewed as socially acceptible. In my social circles, excessive drinking is common, if not outright encouraged. The work hard/play hard mentality is quite common. I’m not talking about regular working shmoes who go and drown their sorrows at some dive. These are people who earn low six figures (or will in a few years if they are younger) as lawyers, consultants, bankers, sales reps and management of major companies. It is quite common for me to be out until 3:00am discussing business strategy with my director over a bottle of Patron at a high class Manhattan strip club. My first week of work, I came home at 2am every night - half the time we were drinking, the other half we were legitimately working until that time.
Some of my friends get shore houses during the summer down the Jersey Shore, Fire Island (non gay sections) or The Hamptons. Basically the routine is you come in Friday (drinking the whole way if you can take public transport), pre-game at the house with some drinking games, close out to the bars and clubs and nurse your hangover on the beach the next day until it’s time to repeat.
As I mentioned, the New York lifestyle portrayed in Sex in the City is accurate (although exagerated). Do you ever see the characters at each other’s appartments? No. They usually meet for drinks at a restaurant, bar, or lounge. You generally don’t see people stumbling drunk though. New York seems to favor the “look how well I hold my liquor” variety of drunk vs the “look how DRUNK I am!!!” variety I generally find in Jersey, Philly or Boston. Sometimes we get those too though.