To elaborate, she wasn’t acting “bossy” (that word doesn’t have anything to do with tantrums), she wasn’t called “bossy”.,so whole I glad she turned out a “sweet kind” girl, this has zero to do with our conversation.
There does seem to be some “mean” words we associate with gender. For example I’ve never heard of a woman called an “asshole” or a “jerk” while I never hear of a man being called a “bitch”.
Now bossy and pushy I’ve heard of for both.
Men get called “bitch” all the time. Usually prefaced with “punk ass”.
Being bossy is some kind of character flaw, unless you’re a boss and conducting your duties as such. And it does provide instruction - the implicit message is “Don’t be so bossy.”
Bossiness isn’t the same as assertiveness, and the whole “Ban Bossy” campaign appears to be based on the mistaken belief that the two words are synonyms. An assertive person isn’t afraid to share their opinions. A bossy person attempts to impose those opinions on others.
I’m not sure why you would compare the word “spaz” to “bossy”. We’d never say “Kyle, stop being such a retard” either, but we might say “Kyle, stop being so naughty” which is far less specific, and yet Kyle will understand the correction as well as a the criticism.
Perhaps the issue is with the word being misused and directed towards those who are not doing anything wrong, or perhaps it’s not brought out often enough for boys. Perhaps everyone who spends time with children needs to consider if they’re treating bossiness differently in boys and girls. Perhaps, even, there is a wider range of bossiness among young girls than there is among young boys. And perhaps the less bossy girls actually benefit from the occasional shutting up of their bossier peers - most young girls will spend more time with other young girls than boys. Whether any of that is true or not, I don’t think the problem is with the word.
ETA: Do you really believe parents, teachers, etc. implicitly tell young girls to “Shut up and look sweet and let the men do the work”? Who are the “men” when this happens? Do teachers ask young boys to help them run classrooms?
That video is stupid. It focuses on the hook (“ban bossy”) rather than the message (“let’s encourage leadership among girls.”) Nobody believes that “bossy” is some kind of kryptonite word that immediately derails feminine ambition. It’s a tagline for a girl’s leadership campaign. Very little of the actual campaign is about that particular word, it’s just a catchy way to bring attention to the campaign (and of course, getting attention is exactly what campaigns are there to do).
It’s like me making a video about “Act Up” saying “Act Up? Do you really want people to act up? People who act up in class get into trouble. Acting up in front of the police will get you arrested. And why would you just focus on acting up? What will that achieve?” or addressing Obama’s “Change” tagline with “Change? You know change could be bad. What if he changes us to lizard people? Huh? Huh?”
Teachers do call on boys more often in the classroom.
You aren’t too far off here. Bossy may not mean “assertive” to you, but it is used that way by others. There are people who use “bossy” to criticize normal and even positive behaviors in girls.
And the issue here isn’t the specific word, it’s about looking for why women get discouraged from taking the lead.
You are creating a strawman. If girls are disproportionately characterized as bossy when they show signs of having commanding personalities, while boys are not, that’s enough to create a gender disparity later. No one is saying that little girls are being told to “…let the men do the work”.
There are negative words that are disproportionately applied to men, and few people would argue that this affects male behavior. “Loser” comes to mind. Men face greater social penalties for being dependent on other people in adulthood. A guy in his 20’s who still lives with his folks and is working a low-wage job (if he’s unemployed at all) is going to be called a “loser” more readily than than a woman in the same position. It doesn’t take a genius to see what affect this disparate stigmatization might have on a plethora outcomes. Men in general will become independent sooner in life to avoid looking like a “loser”, and women in general will face less hits to their self-esteem if they have to ask Daddy to help with the bills.
“Bossy” works the same way with women.
It was relevant to me because she was told to not ‘act out’ and it didn’t affect her development at all. The claim about bossy seems to be that calling girls bossy will affect their ability to assert themselves regarding anything including speaking up about abuse (you posted something along those lines before I believe)
For all I know the girl I referenced earlier was called bossy as a child. I have no way of knowing without asking her, so since according to you it’s common, lets assume she was. As stated, it didn’t seem to harm her ability to ‘speak out’ as the claim goes.
So fine, lets get back to ‘bossy’. You said you were called bossy yourself as a child. OK fine. I’m currently in the ‘so what?’ camp, so convince me otherwise.
I’m curious about your experience in this. When were you called bossy? for what reason and by whom? Did you feel it was justified at the time? What about now as an adult? Looking back, do you feel that maybe you were being (the dictionary definition of bossy) or not? Do you remember your behaviour and how it brought about this rebuke? How did it affect you at the time? What difference did it make to your life as you grew up?
More specifically, how and why did this mild rebuke referencing your behaviour affect you so badly that it had more harmful effect than being called a bitch or any number of other unpleasant words people throw at women when they decide they don’t like their behaviour, or simply want to put them down?
Why is ‘bossy’ worse that ‘bitch’, etc? Why not ban those words? Why is bossy specifically so horrible? Why do you pinpoint that word specifically as being bad as opposed to a myriad other factors affecting your development throughout your youth?
What negative qualities or traits about you now as an adult can be traced back specifically to being called bossy, and no other factors?
I ask this in all sincerity, because I’m just not getting it.
From this I can picture several scenarios that would be either justified in calling a child bossy or not.
First, and they only was I could ever see my self using is would be, lets say, a child ordering around and controlling their siblings in order to get them to do something for him or her. I would not hesitate to stop this behaviour because it is not fair to the other kids. It has more to do with bullying than leadership.
Another would be a child taking charge and trying to motivate their siblings into doing something that they have all been tasked to do. This seems to be perfectly reasonable behaviour, I certainly would not call the child bossy for doing so. In this case, the kid is definitely showing leadership.
If you are saying that girls are being called bossy for the second scenario, then I wholeheartedly agree with it being inappropriate and unreasonable on the part of the parent using it.
[quote=“BrianJ, post:68, topic:688784”]
It was relevant to me because she was told to not ‘act out’ and it didn’t affect her development at all. The claim about bossy seems to be that calling girls bossy will affect their ability to assert themselves regarding anything including speaking up about abuse (you posted something along those lines before I believe)
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We are talking about effects that happen on a population level. Which means making claims about what has happened to random individuals, to refute claims made about groups, is unproductive and silly.
You don’t how this girl would have turned out if she hadn’t been told not to “act out”. For all you know, she would have grown up to be an institutionalized psycho if her parents hadn’t discouraged her behavior when they did. Or maybe their actions had no effect at all because she was simply going through a minor phase.
“Bitch” is a straight-up insult. “Bossy” is a word used by well-meaning adults “advising” young girls. Mothers don’t tell their little girls to stop being a bitch if they want people to like them: they do say “Don’t be so bossy”. Individuals of both genders often have to be taught not to express themselves too strongly/always demand their way. The problem is that, at least in my experience, boys will be more likely taught how to modify expressing themselves/taking leadership roles, whereas girls will be taught to just let someone else be in charge–that they can get their way, or be liked, but not both.
I really don’t know how to prove this to you, except to say it seems really obvious to me as a woman. Even as an adult, being “nice” is a virtual requirement for a woman to be liked and basically one option for a man–but there are other paths available. I know there are all kinds of social pressures put on boys that I am fairly oblivious to–as a high school teacher, I’ve put tremendous effort into figuring these out so that I can be more effective. Here in IMHO, all I can do is ask you to be open to the idea that there are also unique pressures on girls.
I wrote the previous post to you before reading this.
If it’s just a tagline and there is nothing actually wrong with the word, perhaps they should have chosen a different word? Because ‘bossy’ is not leadership. it is closer to bullying.
Based on the oft quoted ‘nice guys finish last’, maybe being nice is a negative for men too? :eek:
Personally I \d rather deal with ‘nice’ people of either gender. If someone is immediately hostile if you disagree with them, that person is not someone I want o be around. if someone behaved in a negative manner, regardless of gender, I would likely not like them very much. I don’t know why you would think this only applies to girls?
There is a spectrum of behavior between “nice” and “bullying”. The line where it becomes negative is somewhat gendered–there exists a range of behavior that is often seen as negative in women, especially girls, and acceptable, even positive, in men and even boys. That’s the level of behavior that is often described as “bossy”.
I think what you are doing is imagining extremes of behavior and seeing, quite correctly, that you don’t find them acceptable for either gender. The problem exists in a more gray area. Yes, someone who is immediately hostile when you disagree with them is unlikable, regardless. But a man who doesn’t back down after two counter-arguments, continuing to press his case in a reasoned but firm manner, is more likely to be seen as assertive than a woman who does the same.
Also, what counts as “hostile” is different for men and women. As a woman, I often feel like I have to precede disagreements with statements like “You are probably right, and I can certainly see where you are coming from, but I am a little concerned you may not have considered that . . .”. IME, men do not have to add that insane string of qualifiers just to be seen as “non-hostile”. But in some environments I really feel like I do, and I think I am actually being pretty socially astute, not paranoid and insecure.
“Nice” is usually a code word for “passive aggressive”, “weak”, “boring”, “enabling”, “clingy”, “spineless”, “dull”, “awkward”, “pussy” or “simply not that into you”.
Or sometimes it means “I have issues because I interpret not being a violent, drug and alcohol addicted abusive sociopath as ‘weak’ and ‘boring’ so I prefer to continue my self-destructive spiral of dating men who mistreat me, rather than date a normal guy like you will treat me well.”.
Actually, I’m really not. See the post I was replying to. I quoted it.
I agree with the last paragraph. But you’re talking about women. I think it’s true that people, in general, do expect more leadership from men and more submission from women. But is it true that people have the same differing expectations for young girls and boys? And if it is, is “Ban Bossy” the best way to change this attitude? Personally, I think any campaign called “Ban x” is the wrong way to go about making positive changes.
Really? Usually it has a different meaning when applied to a man. Typically an emasculating insult, indicating subservience. As in a “prison bitch”. With women, we just mean she is mean.
In my experience of school, especially primary school (4-11). Teachers would regularly draw a distinction between girls and boys and compare the behaviour of the two, with the girls almost always being judged to have behaved better. Girls were far more often than not used individually as examples of how we should all be, too.
Although my original point was that my experience is the opposite of what you say is true, while writing this post I began to think it probably does little good for anyone. Children already segregate themselves by sex, and for teachers to encourage this, as well as generalization, is unhelpful. I also, of course, recognize that my own experiences may not be representative of every classroom, but currently that’s the best evidence I have on the subject.
If there is any better evidence that the word “bossy” is being widely misapplied, or that girls are discouraged from being assertive more than boys, I’d be interested to see it.
That all aside, if it’s true that women have to be nicer than men to be liked, perhaps we should also consider that we might be giving men passes for being arseholes too easily.
The discussion isn’t about what the word means in the dictionary-definition sense. The discussion is about how the word is used. What people are claiming (with good evidence as alluded to in posts above) is that a woman who has a forceful personality and is driven, confident and assertive, is more likely than a man to be disparaged with the term “bossy.”
I think the point that is being missed is that adults and kids interpret “bossy” differently. An adult may genuinely feel like “bossy” only signifies someone who micromanages and nags. But a kid who hears it may think it applies to anyone who is opinionated and assertive, and in doing so, they may be less inclined to express an opinion or assertive themselves.
I remember hearing “bossy” a lot growing up. I no doubt used it myself to describe any girl with a will stronger than mine, because it was the only vocabulary word I had that came close to encapsulating this. A child’s vocabulary is constrained by the words they hear most frequently. If you hear “bossy” more than you hear “micromanaging nag”, then guess what? That’s going to be your go-to label for a variety of personality styles. Just like how I would use “fast” as a catchall insult. A “fast girl” has a very specific connotation in adult vernacular (meaning “slut”). But I didn’t know this because I was a dumb, unsophisticated kid. I thought fast girls talked back to the teacher and said curse words on the play ground. And I thought bossy girls were the ones who were opinionated and complained if they didn’t get their way. People say words around children and expect them to figure out the meaning all on their own.
I don’t think truly “bossy” girls are the ones that need to be worried about in this discussion. Someone who is strong-willed isn’t going to be influenced that easily. It’s the girls who do not have strong personalities…who are heavily influenced by what others think, that are likely to be sensitive. They may subconsciously think, “I can’t speak up at the staff meeting because even if I’m right, everyone will think I’m being a bossy bitch and no one will like me!!!” So they’ll sit there in the staff meeting and let the guys do all the talking while she dutifully takes notes and acts “sweet”. And if a female coworker dares to join the fray, then she may think unkind things about her without knowing why.