When did "bossy" and "pushy" become sexist terms?

In My Humble Opinion
81

Did you read the article posted by zweisamkeit about gender disparities in how negotiators are perceived? Seems pretty clear evidence that assertiveness in females (at least with respect negotiating for higher pay) is seen as a negative thing.

When a boy exhibits leadership traits, he is rewarded in subtle and not so subtle ways. Boys who are viewed as followers also face much steeper social penalties than “follower” girls. Aren’t guys encouraged to be the “alpha male” and laughed at if they show more collaborative “beta male” tendencies? Its inarguable that they do. So let’s expand upon this.

When a boy on the playground starts telling others what to do (“You go over there, Bobby, and I’ll hit the ball to you.”), how will this behavior most likely be characterized? In my experience, ist not unusual for an observing adult to describe the kid in flattering ways, especially if he was effective in getting Bobby to do what he wanted. I could also see him being likened to a general or drill sargeant, if he’s particularly curt or brash in his delivery. But still, generals and drill sargeants are positions that command respect and status. It is not an insult to be likened to one.

It’s already been discussed that a girl who behaves in a similar way (“Sarah, you pretend to be the fairy godmother and I’ll be the witch this time.”) is apt to be called bossy. But even if she isn’t called bossy, her leadership traits will not be rewarded the same way they would be if she were a boy. Boys who stand out as pack leaders are likened to respected leaders in adult society. Presidents, generals, drill sargeants, etc. Girls are often called “the queen bee” and “mother hen”. They and their traits are reduced to the patterns exhibited by dimunitive animals.

Yes we should.

82

I’ve read similar things. But I’m sure I don’t need to tell feminists the difference between women and girls. And hopefully, not the difference between being negotiating a better wage and being a despotic little shit, either.

83

The metaphor I am looking for here is “stop acting white.” It’s not a perfect parralel, but it’s illustrative.

Sometimes people stay “stop acting white” to enforce good traits-- not disowning your friend and family, having pride in your culture, etc. But most of the time, this is a phrase that is used within a group (just like “bossy” is often used by girls against girls) to enforce traits that discourage success.

And like “bossy,” nobody ever says “Oh my god! I just got told to stop acting white! I am going to fail at life from now on!” But given the sentiment enough over time, and the values behind it do get internalized. And that’s really what matters-- the values behind it.

Banning kids from telling each other “stop acting white” isn’t going to cause any magic, but the phrase is a symptom of a wider problem, and making it clear that phrase is not welcome as an everyday descriptor is a start to calling attention to the problem and dismantling the normalization of the values behind it.

84

Lol. I’m so not surprised by this answer.

85

It’s not that I don’t think it’s possible for such a message to have a cumulative effect. I’m sure it is. It’s that I’ve never heard of “bossy” being used to refer to positive character traits, and that “Ban Bossy” says it is being misapplied, but offers no evidence. It also says it’s applied more often to girls than boys - a position that also runs count to what I’ve seen - but offers no evidence.

“Stop acting white” has an element of racism to it that makes it closer to your “spaz” comparison than it is to the word “bossy”, which comes with a lot less bigotry attached by default than the other two examples. But again, it’s not that I need a metaphor - I need some evidence.

Nor should you be. It made perfect sense and was an obvious point I shouldn’t have had to make.

86

I’m waiting for evidence too. I’ve seen stuff like ‘boys do this’ or fathers tell their sons that’ posted on these forums, and when I ask for evidence I get ‘My friend said his dad said this to him once’. One sample cannot be extrapolated out to a common occurrence.

This difference between girls and women (or children and adults) is a perfectly valid point in all this. Children (lets say 4-12) are self centered, selfish little troglodytes* that need to be taught how to behave in civilized society. If a kid was called bossy there is a very good chance it was applicable by the dictionary definition in context.

I asked for context before when someone said they remember being called bossy. No response, sadly.

*Dear parents, oh not YOUR kid, your kid is a little darling :smiley:

87

And we are back to a bunch of men saying they don’t have much experience with a word use primarily for and among preadolescent girls, so therefor it probably isn’t a thing…

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I always thought bossy just meant–bossy. I remember it from the larval state, and had always thought it’s simply a children’s word. I didn’t know adults really used it unless intending to be ironic or humorous.

89

Why are you waiting for evidence? There was plenty posted upthread. The book survey is a particularly good one since you can hardly say it was biased.

And why are some of you still missing the point? It’s not that bossy should be considered a positive word, it’s that the same behaviour in women/girls and men/boys is often decribed as authoritative or commanding for the males and bossy for the females. Same behaviour, different judgment.

“Loser” as a term with similar gendered usage (though not meaning) is a really good example. Can it ever be used about women? Yes. Is it used about women as often as about men? No.

90

Can I echo this question? I’ve never seen so many posters who are unable to grasp the topic being discussed. It really is no wonder the denial is so insistent, with obtuseness this thick and intractable.

91

That is the part I’m doubting. I’ve seen this claimed lots of times, and all the links above are more claims, not evidence. I do not believe ‘bossy’ is considered positive for boys. Sorry, I’m just not buying it. It is a negative behaviour in all children.

So people who don’t agree with you are obtuse? And there is no possibility you are wrong?

92

Wow.

93

Noone is saying that.

You yourself said earlier this movement isn’t even about the word, didn’t you?

Again, pre-adolescent *children *are all about ‘me’. I have no reason to accept or reject the statistics as claimed that girls are called bossy more often. I do, however, doubt that children of either gender are called this for any reason besides they are being controlling and, well, bossy.

Boys who act ‘bossy’ are NOT thought of as ‘leaders’. That’s just absurd. A 7 year old boy has no capacity to understand leadership. If he is acting like that, he is looking out for himself, not trying to lead or show how good he is at management. Most adults do not have a capacity for leadership either. It’s a learned skill and noone in their right mind should think a child has those skills and is exhibiting them.

If someone is watching a little girl trying to organize her friends into a group to accomplish something, no-one should be calling her bossy. The problem there wouldn’t be about the word or about the girls behaviour, but about the adult’s understanding of what the word means.

94

Maybe a lot of women use the excuse “I’m not respected because I’m a woman” because they aren’t very good managers? I’m working with a bunch of women managers at my client and they are all terrible. They are officious, bossy, pretentious, but worst of all, they lack technical understanding of the subjects they manage, rendering them inept and incompetent. In fact, they seem incapable of listening to reason or formulating a plan based on logic to achieve their goals. So they end up sounding like “bossy” children trying to wear you down to get what they want. Or they become so dependent on others that it undermines any sense of an ability to lead.

It’s not a “woman thing”. In fact, I was kind of spoiled from working on an earlier project with different woman PM at the same client. She was so effective at her job without being “bossy” or “pushy” that I was actually sort of taken aback at how inept the current group I’m working with is.

In the past, men have typically learned teamwork and leadership while playing organized sports. What a lot of women misinterpret as being “bossy” or “aggressive” is really just a direct manner of speaking between individuals who have already established a hierarchy of ability and leadership. More women play sports these days. Do people call the captain of a woman’s basketball or lacrosse team “bossy”? For that matter, how often did you consider your teachers “bossy”, at least in such a way that you had any doubt that they were, in fact, the boss?

So maybe if people are calling you “bossy” and “pushy”, it’s because you are coming across as someone who is overcompensating for a lack of knowledge or ability by being a bully.
Or maybe people just associate a female authority figure with unpleasant images of a nagging wife or girlfriend, a bitchy high school girl, a humorless schoolteacher or a mean nurse.

I thought I’d also throw in this scene from 30 Rock I always found funny:

Liz: Hey, Jack, do you treat me any differently Because I’m a woman?
Jack: Well, I pay you a little less, yes.
Liz: No, I mean day-to-day. Do you coddle me?
Jack: In some ways. With a man, I can be more direct, But with you, I have to have a conversation, Talk things through more.
Liz: Gimme an example.
Jack: Well…uh …right now comes to mind.

The racially neutral term is “crabs in a pot”. As in, the crabs could escape the pot if they worked together and stopped clawing at any crab that climbed too high.

95

Who said bossy is a positive term for boys? Read that post again. And several of the others. Then you won’t need to argue with something nobody’s said.