When did oral sex become a common part of sex?

General Questions
#119

However, chimps will eat food covered with feces or otherwise smelly. They may hesitate, but will get over their aversion.

And caged chimps and monkeys throw fruit, branches, stones, and anything else they can get their hands on at people. They throw shit because it’s always available since it’s ammunition they can manufacture themselves. The fact that they throw it doesn’t mean they find it particularly aversive. If that were the case you’d also have to conclude they find apples aversive. In fact, you might conclude that they don’t find it all that aversive since they are so readily willing to touch it in order to throw it.

I’m not claiming that people and other primates might not find feces to be aversive, just the extreme degree of aversion postulated by CarnalK is not supported.

It’s not surprising that they distinguished between people that hurt them and those that fed them. However, for this to be relevant you would have to demonstrate that they preferred to throw shit rather than other objects.

#120

I wish someone would tell my dogs that eating every bit of cat shit they can find is very averse to me if not to them.

In my own informal research in the rain forest of Mexico I concluded that aggressive spider monkeys are more likely to throw sticks and shake branches at me while friendly ones are more likely to embrace me with shit-covered hands, which they had because they were happily eating shit-covered fruit which was shat upon by monkeys on the branches above them. Purely anecdotal but 100% true.

#121

Bonobos, which are regarded as our closest living relative, engage in frequent oral sex. In fact, oral sex is the bonobo equivalent of a handshake. Google “Bonobo sex” for some interesting reading.

George Schaller, in his classic The Mountain Gorilla, reports males giving stimulation to females both orally and digitally.

Orangutans also engage in oral sex.

Oral sex has also been documented in gibbons (siamangs), baboons, and macaques.

It’s a basic principle of evolutionary biology that if a trait or behavior is present in two related species it was probably also present in their common ancestor. It is more parsimonious to postulate that a trait evolved once in the ancestor, than that it disappeared and then re-evolved in one lineage. Based on this, one would conclude that oral-genital behavior evolved in not only the common ancestor of apes (including humans), but probably also in the common ancestor of apes and Old World Monkeys, if not earlier.

Given that oral sex is widespread in non-human primates including our closest relatives, and common in traditional cultures throughout the world, it would be extraordinary if the behavior died out in human ancestors due to some sudden development of aversion to smelly odors, only to re-emerge only when people started washing more. I think the default assumption should be that the behavior was continuously present rather than this more complex scenario, which is not based on any evidence.

Your skepticism that ancient humans engaged in oral sex appears to be based on your cultural biases. Both the proscription of oral sex in Western culture (although its widespread surreptitious practice) and modern fastidiousness about hygiene are cultural elements that go back only a few hundred years. To extrapolate from such recent behaviors to the behavior of humans tens of thousand of years ago isn’t warranted.

#122

You forgot about our big fat poo encrusted bums that is central to my hypothesis you requested. That’s a pretty unique feature among apes.

#123

People in traditional cultures don’t go around with poo encrusted bums. I’m not sure where you get this bizarre idea. Again, I would have to attribute this to cultural bias.

I regard this as a concession that you don’t actually have any valid point to make.

#124

Exactly how many traditional culture people’s bums have you inspected in order to speak with such authority? Are they the ones who taught you how to do a 69 with no ass to face proximity?

Colibri insulting me then warning me for taking him to task.
#125

Can you provide a cite? Perhaps a thread in the GD or IMHO may be better? I haven’t seen any factual claims or cites you have made against the various documentation to the contrary.

As Urinary Tract Infections are a risk with even with missionary style sex and antibiotics not existing before WW2 meant you just died or suffered the consequences your claim that humans had no sanitary standards seems absurd.

Intelligence hasn’t increased significantly in humans for tens of thousands of years in humans and most people were probably smart enough to realize that hemorrhoids from not wiping well are not fun.

#126

I also question your seeming equivalency of cavemen and traditional cultures. There’s no possible advances in hygiene between the two?

#127

Can you provide a cite to what a “caveman” was?

The Talmud describes people carrying special smooth stones, rich people in some cultures were known to use wool and other cultures with access to water use to defecate in water and some plants are well known for the purpose among some groups of Native Americans. In some cultures one of the hands is reserved for this use and it is a cultural taboo to have that hand on the dinner table.

Improper sanitation in this area leads to hemorrhoids, which once again without modern post-germ theory medication was a serious threat to ones health.

#128

I’ve worked among or spent time with traditional cultures in Central America (Embera, Guna, Ngabe-Bugle, Teribe), South America (Yaminawa, Machiguenga and others; one of my field assistants was an adult before his tribe was contacted by missionaries), Africa (pygmies, Maasai), New Guinea (Arfak mountains), and Melanesia (Fiji). What is your opinion based on?

I’ve spent months living with the Embera. They are very cleanly. In villages that lack latrines, they have a specific place where people go to defecate, and they bathe frequently. I’ve never noticed that any other person from a traditional culture had any odor of fecal matter about them. They might sometimes smell of sweat, but not of that.

Again, I take this to indicate you have no substantive response.

Colibri insulting me then warning me for taking him to task.
#129

Someone in this thread was presenting as fact that oral sex amongst humans was documented by cave drawings. That has been uncited. I’m certainly not saying it’s impossible early humans had oral sex, just that I have reason to doubt.

Hemorrhoids are not caused by poor wiping.

#130

No seriously, as clinically as possible explain how I’m “doing it wrong” that I notice my face close to my partner’s bum when we engage in a 69. I am honestly mystified.

#131

If your partners bum typically has fecal matter on it, I don’t know what to say.

#132

OK Dermatitis Neglecta or other forms of Dermatitis, which also can lead to pruritic lesion of skin tags which are similar to external hemorrhoids.

Evidence exists in Pompeii, ancient Egypt, Peru, and the Kamasutra.

As the Osiris myth is from or before the 24th century BCE why do you doubt that it existed before we developed writing?

#133

In any case, fecal matter around the anus is not as much of a problem as you seem to imagine. A high-fiber diet and the traditional squatting posture used before the invention of toilets (which spreads the buttocks apart) is going to result in less residue. And humans had hands before they had glutei maximei; enough fecal matter to be irritating could be removed manually.

#134

Why would you think they would be different?

#135

She’s not a cavewoman. We have a supply of soap and water.

You ducked the question, I see. You can just say you’ve never done a 69. No shame.

The knowledge and wisdom of past generations.

Colibri insulting me then warning me for taking him to task.
#136

You ducked the question about what you think a “caveman” is. Modern research shows that you’d find the same modern brain in humans up to 100,000 years ago.

Until you define what you consider a “caveman” your point is meaningless. Note that the Greeks didn’t really use use soap and water and still had documented oral sex practices.

#137

69 is not the only way to perform oral sex.

#138

I have never said we evolved to have bigger brains than cavemen so I honestly have no idea why you want me to cite that. And you surely can’t be asking me to cite that we have different knowledge, habits and practices than cavemen.