There was a time in the not too distant past, when a criticism of a Clinton (more him then her) would result in beating on par with Tyson vs. a tomato soup can. Part of this seemed to stem from:
the membership here being a tad left leaning,
genuine affection for President Clinton, and to a lesser extent Mrs. Clinton, and,
reaction to a perceive persecution, most probably well founded, of the Clintons by Republicans over Whitewater, Monica or what have you.
Bottom line was, the Clintons were rather roundly support and defended here.
Skip to December of 2007. Democrats, after years of Bush and the The War, are excited about the prospect of taking back the White House. Mrs. Clinton is a force, and Bush has so screwed things up that Clinton advisors are more concerned with choosing White House china than Iowa. Not even a question of if she wins. It’s a question of by how much.
Fast forward to April 2008. In a significant about face, at any given time on the dope, several threads can be found knocking Hillary, and to a large degree supporting Obama. Not only is Clinton bashing in season, it’s the new straight dope pastime. Some unlikely dopers are joined in the feeding frenzy. It’s like cats and dogs living together for goodness sake.
Here are my questions:
When did the Clinton’s jump the shark, and is it permanent?
What caused it? Is Obama that charismatic? Is it all due to him?
If Obama had lost in Iowa and dropped out in January, would Clinton fatigue still have set in, or would Democrats be excited and supporting Clinton?
I have no hidden agenda in this thread. I’m just truly surprised at the change in Hillary’s fortunes here on The Dope, and I’m interested in understanding the genesis of it.
I haven’t changed. I have no problem with the Clintons. I would still happily vote for HRC if she got the nomination. I discount election tactics, because it’s what you have to do. They all lie all the time. Getting upset about it is like getting upset at the violence in hockey. It’s just part if the game, and this is playoff hockey. If you’re not hooking and spearing alittle bit, you’re not trying. I don’t begrudge any of it.
I also don’t think they’ve both taken a 1000 times more than they’ve ever given, and that the image of them as politcal goons is overcooked – especially compared to a psychopath like Rove.
Basically, people found an option they liked better. The average SDMB Democrat is to the left of the average Democrat, and if anything Bill Clinton’s presidency tacked to the right of that. But who else was out there? Carter? Kerry? Pre-Inconvenient Truth Al Gore? These are less than inspiring options. The Clintons were good enough, but with Obama, somebody more in the SDMB Democratic mainstream came along. So it’s mostly about him. Hillary Clinton is not only blocking the preferred choice, she’s said a lot of things that have rubbed people the wrong way. That’s what happened.
If Obama hadn’t caught fire or had never run, I think most of the people on his side would be satisfied with her. Or at least they would say they are. Most Obama supporters would still vote for her if she won - at least, if she won in a reasonably fair and square fashion. Months from now, unless she’s really seen as a major contributor to an Obama loss, the calls for her to not only quit the race, but leave the Senate and drink poison will die down. People won’t quite forgive her or fall in love with her, but that wasn’t going to happen anyway.
When did the Clinton’s jump the shark, and is it permanent?
What caused it? Is Obama that charismatic? Is it all due to him?
If Obama had lost in Iowa and dropped out in January, would Clinton fatigue still have set in, or would Democrats be excited and supporting Clinton?
I’m not sure when they jumped, and I don’t rightly care if it’s permanent. I imagine they jumped somewhere in January, if I had to guess.
I’ve always liked Bill; he’s kind of the rock star politician-- the rebel, the bad boy. Not a great president, IMO, but a smooth, likeable politician. Hillary, on the other hand, I’ve never liked, but always kept my mouth shut about her for the “sake” of Bill. Plus, I felt like I’d be siding with the conservative nut jobs if I bad mouthed her publically. So I guess the answer to this is: I never liked her, Obama is that charasmatic, and he’s the reason I now feel free to publically state how much I can’t stand her.
I’m not sure if Clinton fatigue would’ve set in, but I’d probably be as excited about a Hillary White House as I was about a Kerry White House four years ago-- as in, not very. I was more voting against Bush than voting for Kerry, and this would’ve been pretty much me voting against McCain, rather than voting for Hillary Clinton. Obama, on the other hand, is the first time I’ve been excited about a candidate since I’ve been old enough to vote (since 1993). He’s the first candidate I’ve ever given money to.
So I guess the Obama candidacy has given me something to be excited about, while at the same time giving me the courage to admit out loud that I hate Hillary.
I don’t think the Clintons were ever particularly admired here, at least not in the way you’re thinking.
I mean, the policies of the Clinton Administration weren’t particularly liberal, and the leftists here (of which I am one - on the conservative wing of the radical left, as the Gentleman from Nipples so aptly put) really only like them in contrast to W, HW, and Reagan.
While I think the impeachment stuff was a witch hunt, I despise Clinton for what he did (or rather, didn’t do) in Rwanda, and for DADT, and I’m a bit irked at welfare reform and NAFTA.
Stack them up next to Obama (who isn’t necessarily the best thing since sliced bread, either), and they start to look a little more unattractive.
I’ll still vote for HRC if she gets the nomination, but I won’t like it.
One and two are tied together. At least, they are for me. Until he started stumping for his wife and going (in some cases) over the top in his denouncements and criticisms of Barack Obama, Bill Clinton had built up a large amount of political capital. Because of the recent gaffes, it seems he’s spent the majority of that capital, all on a presidency that probably has no chance of happening.
For Hill: I like her. I like her tenacity and what she’s tried to do for healthcare and the message she sends to women everywhere. I just don’t see her getting elected. Not because of her gender, but because, divided as they are, Republicans everywhere will unite to keep her out of the White House.
I’d support whoever the Dem candidate turned out to be.
There have been a number of posters who truly admired Bill and/or Hillary Clinton over the years, but those posters have never amounted to anything like a majority. What I recall seeing has been a pretty large number of posters expressing disgust at the way in which the Republican Congress went along with the nonsense to waste millions of dollars seeking any possible Clinton flaw with the intention of dragging Bill through the mud, leading to the impeachment and then continuing even after he left office. It was simply unnecessary overkill that had much more to do with personality clashes than law or even politics and its utter stupidity did, indeed, cause folks to rise to his defense when particularly idiotic attacks were launched, here.
However, I would not say that he was actually loved and embraced by any majority of SDMB posters–even among those who chose to point out that we were wasting tons of money on personal vendettas.
For me, Bill Clinton jumped the shark during his first term, when he fired Joycelyn Elders. That was enough to keep me from voting for him a second time.
That was the wedge issue that got him in. Then it was a matter of momentum. When she approved the Iran motion I think that cinched that she hadn’t learned. Fortunately some reports came out shortly thereafter that cut Bush off in his saber rattling.
Jumping the shark… I haven’t been around that long, but I noticed a shift in the lead up to Iowa. He’s a better speaker (typically - tho I don’t see it tonight) and appears more principled.
Personally, I started losing respect for Hillary when she decided to sell out the first amendment for a little political capital. Even before Obama’s candidacy, that made it a hard sell for me to vote for her.
Personally, I’m not too worried about citizen on candidate “disrespect”. If someone thinks that Obama is an American hating empty suit or that Clinton is a lying lobbyist-whore, that’s up to them.
I wonder more about the disrespect candidate supporters show towards each other. And, maybe I’m biased, but I see a lot more nastiness towards Obama’s supporters coming from Clinton’s camp than vice versa. All the tired “Obamabots” & “Obamatons” remarks, digs about cults and drinking Kool-Ade, etc. I may not much care for Hillary Clinton but I can accept that her supporters probably have a better reason for supporting her than because they’re retarded or brainwashed.
That was why Clinton’s “Get real” and “celestial choir” remarks towards Obama’s supporters bothered me. It was the first time I’d seen a candidate out-right validating these attacks from supporters to supporters. And that’s why I won’t be voting for Clinton if she wins the nomination. She had no problem with insulting me as a supporter of Obama and I haven’t heard a hint of remorse from her about it since.
To stay on point, that was the point she “jumped the shark” for me and I was done with her. Encouraging her supporters to mock and belittle not even Obama but other voting Democrats for not agreeing with her was enough for me to write her off.
I don’t think Hillary has, as I never really cared for her enough for a drop in popularity to count as a shark-jump. As for Bill, I don’t really know when or if he did.
Obama is very charismatic, and has the benefit of being the first successful charismatic Democrat since '96. It sounds corny and naive, but I feel like I can trust him. Listening to Hillary, on the other hand, I feel like I’m being scolded by a middle manager who will never bother to remember my name and will toss me out the moment she thinks it’s to her advantage to do so.
Generally, I liked the Clinton years, although that’s with the caveat that I was out of the country for 5 1/2 of them, and so could more easily adjust the signal:noise ratio to my liking. One thing, however, that turned me off Bill right from the start was his willingness to throw his people under the bus the moment there was a whiff of controversy: Elders, Guinier, Baird, Wood, and some guy whose name I can’t remember now (put forward as a cabinet appointee in '93 just long enough to get pasted by the press, then dumped before he could have a hearing and defend himself). Still, I thought (and still think) most of the right-wing squawking, particularly about Hillary, was absolute nonsense. I was mostly neutral on Hillary until she became a Senator and joined sides with the “video games are evil” morons. Since then, there hasn’t been anything that’s raised my opinion of her, and a few more things that have lowered it.
I don’t know. I’d vote for her, but there would be the trepidation of knowing that the Dems were putting up yet another bland, unlikable talking head that stood a good chance of losing.
Hillary is just desperate. She is 60 and this is her only chance to become the first woman president. She would be a historical figure. She also has groomed herself for this for years. There is in my opinion ,a sense of entitlement. Suddenly all of it is falling apart. I feel sorry for her but Bill and Hillary will do anything to win. Sometimes they are stepping over the line. Would she actually harm Obama in the attempt? I hope not. but it would not shock me.
I never cared about her one way or the other until the first few debates. I was so annoyed with the fact that she seemed to have little or nothing positive to say, she seemed not to try to get any message across. All she wanted to do was cross reference anything Obama ever said looking for contradictions. I remember saying as a joke, that she was attacking Obama for making a statement that contradicted something he wrote in a third grade book report, only to find out later she really did.
From her website.
A lot of it probably is the generally liberal nature of this board. Despite conservative claims, the Clintons were and are actually moderate Democrats and never ran as liberals. But for liberals, they represented a better choice than any of the likely alternatives, most of whom were conservative. But now for the first time, there’s a strong alternative that’s to the left of Hillary Clinton. So people on the left have naturally flocked to Barack Obama.
Getting back to the OP, the liberal consensus on this board has changed because of this. Liberals used to support, or at least excuse, the Clintons because they were opposing conservatives. Now that the Clintons are opposing Obama, liberals are upset about the sort of thing they used to accept. It’s their ox being gored now.
I can’t speak for everyone, but for me Hillary jumped by refusing to apologize for the original Iraq vote. Had she done a mea culpa in December, I could have considered voting for her. But she was convinced that she had to look tough, and tough people do not apologize (according to her). Bill jumped for me with his “fairy tale” comment about Obama. Since then he has lost every last ounce of my respect and I look back on his administration with no fondness at all now. In my case, it is permanent. I will never think well of either of them again and now hold them only slightly less in contempt than I do Bush.
I don’t think any of it is due to Obama. If Edwards had pulled out in front, Team Clinton would be busting his knee caps too.
You didn’t ask a third question
There would be a lot less anti-Hillary feeling because she never would have had to go dirty. In a Hillary-McCain final, I would have voted for Nader. If it was Hillary-Romney or Hillary-Ghouliani, I would have held my nose and voted for her, a vomit bag at my side.