I’d have to look at this from the other way around. If Morel were a Pole, accused of the same crimes, but against Jews, by the Israelis. He is not eligible for extradition because of the lack of treaty, and his “crimes” were not crimes under Polish law, how would Israel proceed?
ShibbOleth: We already have an answer to your question. I’d post the answer as a question: What has Israel done about those who participated in and organized the Polish pogroms but were never charged?
You, sir, are a liar.
I already said he was a Polish Catholic, try reading, eh?
Again, you’re asking me to prove a negative, which is a fallacy, and claiming that the well documented history of Polish anti-semitism is a ‘smear’ made by me. :rolleyes: Let me guess, you’re totally ignorant of facts such as these? If so, you have little place attempting to call me on jack shit. Militant ignorance is somewhat distasteful.
My request remains, can you give me more than one single trial? There were many, many camps. Surely you can find more than one trial? Have you even followed the case? Are you aware of the Polish protests over the fact that the Lamsdorf case was even going to trial?
:smack:
Yes.
The Israelis do not find that the evidence presented is enough to charge him with genocide under their laws.
Gah, just so those following along at home don’t see my refusal to cater to ignorance as a paucity of facts:
[
They’d get better lawyers. Jewish ones. ;j
Not quite the same is it? One is a recognize minority singled out for genocide and discriminated against for much of human history. The other… not so much.
Dopey bitch - he was kidnapped from Italy by Israeli agents because there wasn’t a formal extradition agreement between Israel and european nations.
In fact, he was specifically lured to Italy because the Israeli government had promised the UK they wouldn’t do anything to him on UK soil.
So it seems the Israelis don’t always pay attention to the lack of formal extradition treaties after all… if it works to get people to Israel it can be used to send war criminals the other way.
Do you read the links you post, or just pull them out of your arse? :rolleyes:
Seems the Canadian Govt agrees with me - guess they’d know more about it than you, eh chuckles?
In 1998 the Canadian Govt proposed legislation that would…
“… be flexible enough to provide for extradition without treaty on the basis of designation or a case specific agreement”.
And that makes him not Israeli how? 
And if the Polish secret service abducted Morell then you’d have a point.
The Canadian gov’t could propose legislation that would require you to shower more often. I might agree with them. Wouldn’t make it a worthwhile way to spend tax dollars but hey, who am I to argue.
Wait… I take the extradition point back. I see what you meant now… :smack:
Still, they just called him home. And wouldn’t take no for an answer. It’s like that in jewish families. ;j
Mordechai! We haven’t seen you in ages. Why don’t you come home and see your poor mother, she’s worried sick about you. Maybe have a nosh while you’re here? You’re thin as a post, have you been eating right? You want to maybe spend some time in maximum security?
Poland’s demand for Morel extradiction from Israel is part of two-pronged effort of Polish authorities to prosecute all “perpetrators of genocide, crimes against humanity and war crimes”.
They are looking into Nazi crimes, which are well known, but also into Communist crimes, which are much less known, especially because Communists maintained grip on Polan for 30+ years. Morel case is part of prosecution of Communist crimes.
FinnAgain, take a good look at the cite above. It most certainly isn’t anti-semitic at all.
Press Communigue Regarding Court Motion for the Provisional Arrest of Salomon Morel
There may well be political and unsavory ethnic motivations involved. What really concerns me though, is whether there is sufficient effort to try the man for these alleged crimes. I am never impressed with the defense “Others are getting away with it!”
It would bother me to make this statement, as much the same thing was said about brutal concentration camp guards and officials operating under the Nazi regime.
“I vas chust following orders.” :rolleyes:
Other nations (including most likely Poland) have stonewalled requests to try or produce citizens previously involved in WWII-era crimes based on a variety of factors including an array of legalisms. If Israel has a good reason for not making a greater effort to institute a trial in this case, I have not yet heard it.
Wow. How about that? A motherfucking cite. Just like I simply asked for in the first place. I guess it is possible to “prove a negative.” Fucking dumbass. It’s not catering to ignorance when you make a fucking claim and then someone asks you to back it up.
Of course, that claim doesn’t prove your assertion that Poland is only targetting Jews for crimes during the Communist occupation.[url=“http://www.ipn.gov.pl/eng/eng_inv_januszb.html”]Janus B.](http://www.tau.ac.il/Anti-Semitism/asw99-2000/poland.htm) is being prosecuted in Lebork for torturing prisoners. Bohdan Koziy is currently under extradition proceedings for the crime of genocide against Jews, they even went so far as to get his US citizenship revoked before he fled to Costa Rica. Huh, extraditing someone for killing Jews. Who knew those crazy, anti-Semitic Poles would do something like that.
Rhetorical question, you dumb fuck.
What facts? That 60 years ago pogroms took place and people are uncomfortable acknowledging that? That there is still anti-Semitism among the rural poor and least educated segments of Poland? Wow. Who would have known something like that. That’s totally unique to Poland. Or any other other western country that tolerated massive civil and human rights abuses against minorities half a century ago (see: United States). What a fucking shocker. We also have the Polish president saying that Poland should use the anniversary of the massacre to ask for forgiveness from their Jewish population. Overt anti-semitism right there, if you ask me.
Frankly, it looks pretty plain to me that the state of Israel is only concerned with bringing perpetrators of genocide to justice when it concerns the Holocaust, and only then, when the perpetrators were acting against Jews. I’d bet a lot of money that if Mr. Morel were a Nazi camp commander, they’d be screaming anti-Semitism if some country refused to extradite him. Or they’d just violate the law and kidnap him.
Nitpick perhaps, but the alleged crimes were committed after the war.
True, but there were also a hell of a lot of Poles who suffered under the Nazis and were in the camps along side the Jews. It wasn’t just the Jews who suffered during the Holocaust. I’m not trying to diminish what they went through, but dammit, saying, “Well, they MIGHT have been Nazis, so I don’t fault the guy.” is absolute bullshit.
If you think the SOVIETS running the camp were any better than the Nazis, you’re fucking crazy. I’ve got family in Poland still living with the effects of Communism.
By the way, just want to start out this post by pointing out the fact that you’re a filthy contemptible liar who hasn’t even retracted his lie. Knowing that you’re an honorless rodent, let’s continue, shall we?
Sorry, you’re ignorant and hadn’t done the research. Sorry I don’t cater to your lazy ass. Really, I’m sorry.
Actually, besides the fact that you’re a load your mother should’ve swallowed,you hadn’t even done the research and saw fit to challenge the facts of the matter because you can’t be bothered to fucking google it, yeah, treating your ignorance with respect is indeed catering to ignorance.
Face it, you’re a loud mouthed asshole who hadn’t done any reading, and still decided to hold forth. Pardon me for not catering to your ignorance while you’re too damn lazy to inform yourself before you get into a debate.
Since you’ve been too lazy to get off your ass and type a handful of letters into google, I’ll make this simple for you. Lebork? It’s in Poland. Exxxxxtradition? No. Moreover, is torturing prisoners an allegation of genocide? Why, no? You don’t say? Ah.
In addition, how about the fact that at least as of a year or two ago, none of those in former soviet turf have been extradited? Ya know, the actual architects of the camps? Don’t worry, just insult me some more and then do some research to learn if you’ve even got a position that can be defended. That’s sure honorable.
Good gods you’re dense. No, the Poles aren’t anti-semitic. Nope. :rolleyes: Some idiot on a message board says they’re not so ignore the evidence! Ignore it! Walesa’s own priest didn’t come out with some anti-semitic trash. Nope. Some idiot on a message board, who can’t be bothered to do research, ignores the evidence he hasn’t researched. So that’s, like, almost as good as it never happening. Right?
Again, you lazy motherfucker, you’re too broke to even pay attention.
Koziy was working for the Germans. As such, he **was not a Polish camp commander. **
Also, you lazy fuck, who was the driving force behind the charges, as given in your own cite? You indolent too-fucking-tired-to-read-his-own-cite asshole muncher?
So it only took the Wiesenthal center and a US court acting independently to initiate the investigation. Good job there Poland!
Sorry, I knew you were lazy and ignorant, I didn’t realize you were as dense as granite too. The Geborski trial fell through because the Polish authorities couldn’t be bothered to look into enough evidence. Almost 50 years later, when they were looking for European acceptance, the Poles reopened the investigation. Go figure.
I’m willing to bet you didn’t know that, as you’re too much of an asshole to do any research before you open your mouth.
Wow… willful ignorance. Par for the course. I’m surprised you got off your ass long enough to click on a link.
Yeah, people are ‘uncomfortable’ with that fact. yeah…
Yeah. Those innocent, Jew loving, put upon Poles who Finn is unjustly casting aspersions upon! Tisk. Tisk.
I’m not sure if you’re painfully ignorant and loudmouthed, or just a liar. Well, I mean, we already know you’re a liar, but I’m not sure if that’s all you are. You understand, I’m sure. But, let’s look at your lie that it’s only the poor and uneducated, shall we? Remember the story about Walesa’s priest?
[
](http://www.adl.org/PresRele/ASInt_13/2505_13.asp)
No, that’s called politics. What’s the very next sentence?
And, of course President Aleksander Kwaśniewski didn’t drag his feet as long as possible when asked to return stolen property to the Jews. Nopers… but you’re ignorant of that fact, having never done any research before you opened your yap. Good job!
Notice who they’re actually prosecuting. “Minor functionaries”, mostly people guilty of torture but not genocide, and the sentences have been from one to eight years.
And, 12 people are on Interpol’s wanted list. First, why only twelve? There were many camps working under Stalin’s orders. And, why aren’t they making a fuss over those twelve? Were any of those twelve even camp commanders? Are they not Polish citizens? The news isn’t filled with stories of those twelve, but they’re throwing a fit over Morel. Odd, that.
Oh, and, if Morel is a Jew and asks for it, he’s an Israeli citizen.
It’s not a defesnse, it’s simply a disturbing fact of the matter.
Like I said, Morel is most likely an evil guilty fuck. His crimes are not diminished because others did similar things. But by the same token, why doesn’t Poland simply charge him with murder, rather than genocide/war crimes? I question just how political the issue is. If the claims aren’t genocide under Israeli law, and if he killed people, then charge him with murder, which is a crime under Israeli law.
You misunderstand me. Part of the problem with Poland’s claims is that they argue that, mostly, Morel commited sins of omission. Claiming that he “didn’t prevent” the methods used, and in some cases used them himself. But even in those cases, to my knowledge, they haven’t claimed that he killed people. The charges ammount to torture and severe mistreatment. All of which, yes, he could and should be jailed for, were it not past the statute of limitations.
If he issued orders, why not present that fact? It isn’t a question of ‘just following orders’. It’s a question of what facts they’re bringing to the light of day and what they’re trying to charge him with.
The oringinal charge was past the statute of limitations, the current one does not fit their definition of a war crime. If Poland cares more about justice than a political fight, they’ll charge him with murder. If he didn’t murder anybody, then he’s not able to be tried under war crimes statutes in Israel because they don’t consider the charges to be war crimes.
So, just to sum up: He was originaly charged with crimes that were past the statute of limitations. Then, he was charged with things that aren’t war crimes under Israeli law. If the Polish government has different charges that allow them to charge Morel with murder, then they should present them. Otherwise, changing the original charges to genocide without providing new evidence won’t cut it.
I think the official documents I gave you maintain temperate language and to the point. Nowhere Morel nationality is even mentioned. Nobody is throwing fits. He is wanted as Communist criminal. He seems to be a complete villain. But if you want to see really serious charges against someone else, here is Katyn massacre.
I know that Israel gives sanctuary to every Jew that steps on her soil. Obviously, Morel was perfectly happy in Poland under Communism. Only after Polish Communists lost power, he moved to Israel in fear of being persecuted for old brutalities he comitted. I say, Israel should kick him out.
There is, at the very least, a glut of articles talking about his case. Why? Maybe the Polish government has nothing to do with this, but I’m somwhat cynical.
Even though Morel’s nationality is not mentioned, why is it that the newspapers have focused on him and not the other 12? Were any of the 12 camp commanders? If not, why haven’t the newspapers written about other camp commanders, too?
You’re shifting the goal posts.
How many of the camp commanders have been tried? The commander of Lamsdorf is, apparently for the last four years. I can’t seem to find a verdict, or anything about the actual trial. The charges, however, center around one single incident rather than him running the camp. Why aren’t all the camp commanders being charged? Or at least investigated?
I say Poland should charge him with a crime that’s not beyond an Israeli statute of limitations and that doesn’t attempt to recast or rewrite definitions of specific crimes under Israeli law. Say, murder.
You mean Western newspapers? How is that Polish gov’t fault?
You asked why Poles don’t charge anybody else for crimes. I gave you a cite where they charge the whole SSSR.
Charges summary:
Remind me, what crimes were commited in Guantanamo, again?
I don’t believe they were ignorant of what bringing a second set of charges would do. If they didn’t want media attention, they’d have kept it private. Or they’d have gone for the far less sensational charge of murder. They didn’t.
In case I didn’t make it clear, I was asking about the commanders of the camps run for German prisoners. Charging someone else for killing Poles is not the same thing.
I’m not arguing that he’s innocent. I’ve said several times that he’s probably guilty.
If you want him tried for war crimes Poland should go to the Hague. If specific charges of actions he commited which caused the deaths of civilians/pow’s can be made, then he can be charged with murder. If he is to be charged with murder instead of war crimes, then that might stick.
It’s actually sorta odd, I’ve not argued that he’s innocent or should get off scott free, merely that this situation is not cut and dry. The problem, as I see it, is primarily a legal one. A brief quote from Amnesty: ." In many cases, national law is inadequate to deal with such crimes. For example, the crimes are not defined as crimes under international law or their definitions, principles of criminal responsibility and defences are inconsistent with international law. Often, courts cannot exercise universal jurisdiction over suspects found in their territory or even surrender them to international courts because national laws do not authorise them to do so."