When is sexism okay?

The BBQ Pit
241

I don’t know. If it’s not, she’s one of the most socially clueless people I’ve seen in a long time.

She chose a user name remarkably similar to one of the most famous porn stars of all time, also apparently so she could take offense at people noticing the similarity. Or, again, just because she was powerfully clueless. I’m not sure.

If she was 12, maybe. But IIRC she’s in college. If a grown woman doesn’t know what the result will be if she tells men that she’s got great tits, there’s some significant understanding missing. It’s a fairly simple concept that if you don’t want your sexual bits to be discussed, don’t make them a topic of conversation. And if you make your sexuality a topic of conversation and then get upset when people respond as if you want it to be a topic of conversation, there’s something wrong going on.

242

And so once we’ve established that a woman has tits (which are apparently inherently and unavoidably sexual), it’s all right to continue badgering her about them during unrelated conversations? And after she’s pointedly asked people to stop?

“Trolling for offense” is a major stretch of logic. Your entire characterization of her is that she’s faking it and deserves it 100%, which to my estimation is a crock of shit.

243

I can’t believe this thread is still alive and kicking.

The other side could claim the same thing. And I would say the other side has better ammunition for that gun.

Can’t we all agree that:

  1. She should’ve known better/expected it. This isn’t a private room with twelve long time friends. There are hundreds/thousands? of us, all ages, cultures, backgrounds and sense of humor. It is disingenuous to think “everyone will/should behave/react the way I want them to”.

  2. She didn’t have to mention her breasts in the red wine thread. But she chose to, which is fine. The guys decided to drop some unwanted humor - which is fine. This is a board. All makes and kinds roam it. We are free to say what we want (more often than not). If she didn’t like it, and they hadn’t stopped, she could just ignore them. Just like she feels at liberty to mention her breasts, those guys feel at liberty to comment on something she made public. BIG DEAL!

  3. The couple of guys who pushed her buttons maybe didn’t know she was so sensitive about these things (I didn’t, I’ve only been here a couple months). If they did, see point 1 above.

  4. None of this has a damn thing to do about sexism, nor the general population of the board and their behavior in the presence of a boob comment. That “scandalousness” she invoked is what I think has triggered most of these responses.

  5. For someone who wants a subject dropped, creating this thread is not the best tactic

  6. She seems to be gone, so what are we arguing at this point?

  7. Those who don’t agree after 5 pages of posts, I doubt will come to an agreement on anything at this point.

No? Can’t we just leave it at that? Are those six points so hard to agree on? Do we have to try and psychoanalyze this girl (mind you, she’s pretty young) in an effort to excuse her behavior or condemn her actions?

Never has so much, been said by so many, about something so damn small (I am not saying her boobs are small just in case).

244

How unfortunate for you.

245

Tracy Lord was the name of Katharine Hepburn’s character in The Philadelphia Story. It’s a pretty well-known film. It’s even inspired multiple usernames here – Cary Grant played a man named C. K. Dexter Haven.

246

You’re welcome, everybody!

247

Someone can deliberately chose a user name that’s remarkably similar to a porn star in order to troll for offense, and it’s okay if it’s a reference to a classic film? Surely I’m reading you wrong. You wouldn’t really argue that someone who chose the user name Deep Throat and then got offended when people used innuendo wasn’t trolling for offense, or socially clueless, because they were a Bob Woodward fan. Would you?

Or what if I changed my user name to Long Hard because I really liked the Marlyn Manson song. I’d then be totally innocent if people thought I was referring to my penis and I got annoyed at them? Or if my name in real life with Pete North and my user name was Pete North, I’d be justified in being totally shocked and appalled, I tellz ya, when people made jokes about the porn star?

Come on. When faced with the choice of any number of characters, she chose one that is remarkably close to the most famous porn star in history.
I find it tough to believe that she really didn’t realize it was so similar to Lords’ porn name. Or that she didn’t realize what the results would be. Again I think it’s far more likely that she’s either socially clueless or chose that name precisely because it evoked the porn star’s name and could lend enough plausible deniability so that she could outrage-troll.

248

I don’t know, Man, but you probably don’t want yourself associated with the stimulus package. For starters a lot of people don’t think the package is going to be very stimulating. In fact, many think it will prolong the flaccid economy. And everyone agrees it was premature :smiley:

I nominate this song as the offical soundtrack of this debate. As for the debate, I fall in with those who think that if she didn’t want comments about her breasts, she shouldn’t have mentioned them specifically in that other thread. If she’d said “it has darts that make my figure look great” instead of saying that her breasts look great and waist small, there would have been no tit jokes. If one is that sensitive about people remarking about her breasts (and there’s nothing wrong with being sensitive) more thought should go into remarking about them in the first place.

249

I think it’s much more likely she’s had a naive moment (or she may be generally naive) than she was trolling for reaction so she could respond negatively to it. Her posting history, that I’ve seen, just doesn’t support your hypothesis.

BTW, to answer Tracy’s question, sexism (as defined by the OP, i.e., sexual comments) is ok when you know your audience. The OP misjudged her audience and said something that made them misjudge her.

250

She probably should have known that any mention of any part of the female body on this board would rate a scuzzy comment. That’s true. But that doesn’t mean she’s the one in the wrong.

Or, she chose the name of a character from a 1940’s movie, played by an iconic actress.

Look, I see what your trying to say here, but the fact is that even if she’d picked the name Sucki McLotsocock, if she asks people to stop with the sexual stuff, they should stop. I just don’t think this is that complicated or that it has room for compromise.

So she was asking for it?

251

Actually my hypothesis is exactly what you stated above, that she’s generally socially naive or trolling for offense.

And let’s be honest here, it’s not a naive moment, because it’s been carried forth for years now. If she wasn’t aware that Tracy Lord would remind people of Traci Lords, fine. But she was quickly made aware and chose to keep the same user name. If it was an innocent mistake at first, she’s either socially clueless or trolling for offense at this point.

Maybe I’ve missed a comment or two, but none I saw were particularly ‘scuzzy’. When a woman announces to men that she thinks she’s got hot tits, she should expect to be flirted with. As I already said, if any men did cross the line then they were wrong. But she is equally wrong for her whole “Hey everybody, I’ve got really awesome tits! Don’t talk about my awesome tits!” schtick.

Yes and no. If she chose that name specifically so she could troll for outrage and get to feel self righteous by telling men to stop flirting with her, then she’d both have a right to ask men to stop flirting with her and be an offense-troll for deliberately setting up a situation where she’d get to do that.

Come now. You really don’t mean to equate rape with a woman deliberately trying to get men to flirt with her so that she can act all high and mighty about how horrible they are for flirting with her? Or rape with a woman who’s so clueless that she doesn’t know that if she talks about how hot her tits are, that men will flirt with her?

Don’t get bombastic here. It’s like discussions on the Dope where someone points out that a woman wearing a low cut dress with huge tits shouldn’t be surprised if men stare, and someone replies with “so she was just asking for it, eh?”. There is absolutely no equivalence, at all, to men flirtatiously (or even obnoxiously) responding to sexual signals that a woman is putting out and a man physically violating a woman and forcing sex upon her. None.

252

She didn’t say “Hay guyz I got hot titz!” She said her favorite shirt, that had been stained and that she was looking to fix, made her waist look tiny and her boobs look awesome.

This is a comment on the fit of the shirt, not an invitation to request pictures of her chest.

But you know, on this point, I’m willing to see the other side’s view. There is a lot of flirting on this board. Maybe the guys responding were just getting the wrong impression, that’s cool, it happens. It can be a bit embarrassing, Lord knows I’ve made an ass of myself once or twice on misinterpreted signals, but it happens. But when the woman in question comes along and clears it up, that should be the end of it. Full stop. No more.

I guess here we’re just going to have to pick our own path. I’ll take her at her word, and you can assume she’s knee deep in some creepy passive-aggressive misandrist plot that involves being able to get mad at men on the internet.

It’s not the same level of horrible, no, of course not. But it’s the same basic tactic and it’s still pretty terrible. A woman does something, anything that sexually excites or interests a man. The man acts on that interest. Woman says no way. The man continues on his course of action anyway. The woman should have known better.

It’s just wrong. And in the particular circumstance of this thread, it is so fucking stupid and it could have and should have stopped right away.

253

So she didn’t say she had hot tits, merely that her tits were hot? :stuck_out_tongue:
Come on, it’s not only about the fit of the shirt. As others have pointed out, that could have been accomplished by saying something like “It fits better than my other shirts.” “it’s really flattering on me”, or whatever. The way she posted it was practically a signed, sealed, notarized offer for men to flirt with her.

And to be honest, even if it was “I look really good in it”, she shouldn’t be at all shocked if someone responds "Oh yeah? Pic or it never happened! :wink: " If you make a comment online about how very attractive you are, you’re either clueless or trolling for offensive if you then get all annoyed that people take that as an invitation to flirt. If I posted something about how I can lick my own eyebrows and all the women I’ve been with have made really good use with my KISS-level oral appendage, I’d be a pretty big jerk if I then acted as if women were obnoxious sleezebags if some of them responded with something along the lines of “Oh reaaaaaly?” Or at least I’d be pretty clueless. Same if I’d just said “gee, I’m pretty handsome”. Right?

No, not full stop. Yes, men shouldn’t flirt with a woman who makes it clear that she doesn’t want to be bothered by their attentions. But a woman who is so clueless (or an offense-troll) that she tells men that her tits are awesome and then gets offended with men think that means she wants to flirt has either got to get a clue or stop being what’s referred to in common parlance as a cocktease.

Not passive aggressive, and certainly not misandrist. Simply deliberately-produced-situations-perfect-for-self-righteousness. Or, cluelessness. And it’s not really that extreme a suggestion (like a “plot” would be). Come on, admit it, self righteousness and outrage can feel good, they can make people feel important, righteous, unfairly put upon, and morally superior. Almost everybody on the planet has, at one time or another, enjoyed that complex of emotions.

And even if you’re taking her at her word, surely you can agree that she needs to be a hell of a lot more aware of her own words if she gets so bent out of shape when men flirt with her. No?

No, and it’s not even close. One tactic involves words or glances, the other involves and actual physical assault. It’s like claiming that calling someone an idiot and punching them in the nose are the same basic tactic.

Again, both can be true. The woman could have known better than to invite men to flirt with her (or accidentally send those very clear signals) if that wasn’t what she wanted, aaaaaaaaaaaand men who go too far can be obnoxious.

254

Ok well from now on when a woman says she would rather not have her body discussed sexually I will ignore that her words literally say no and instead focus on my own interpretation of her words conceivably meaning yes because that seems like the best possible option.

255

Also if I’m being too subtle here my basic point is that even if, and I don’t think this is the case, but even if she started out as some sort of sexual banshee screaming passionate frenzy all up and down your dong the second those ecstatic screams stopped and were replaced by the lamentable yet predictable dirge of “Leave me alone you weirdo, stop talking about my chest” you really need to listen to that last part because if you don’t you’re a pretty much an asshole.

256

I don’t know how you think you have any right to lecture others when your username is OMG ze Bras.

what?

257

For those who care about the actual words used, not just summaries and paraphrases, but what was actually said by TL & myself, here are the links:
1 Women and “signals” my posts are #36 & #38
2 Red wine stains my post is #30
3 Wow, our new hire is my dream guy my posts are #11 & #14

Was it? I don’t control how she might respond, as the kids would say “I’m not the boss of her” just as I would say “She’s not the boss of me.”
And besides, who doesn’t like fireworks? It’s a chance to say “Ohhh!” :slight_smile: and “Ahhh!” :smiley: and “Wow” :eek:

Zeriel, above you state “She’d asked you to stop already …” Please cite where in prior threads #1 or #2 (links are above) that
TL asked me to stop. When TL asked me to stop, not already but in Thread #3 (link is above), I did.

258

Ironic, then, in light of how you put words in Tracy Lord’s mouth. You and FinnAgain and everyone else claiming that she said she had amazing boobs are simply incorrect and are twisting her words to make her responsible for men’s obnoxious comments. She was commenting on the fit of a shirt. It’s unfortunate that she used the word “boobs,” since your contention seems to be that any mention of “boobs” is sexual to men, and therefore you have to expect lewd comments.

It’s funny that men don’t like it when women think of them as troglodytes with the one-track minds of teenage boys, but will defend their right to behave so to the death. You can’t have it both ways, gentlemen.

No, in the shirt thread, she was not offering her sexuality as an appropriate topic for discussion. She was talking about how her shirt fit. She was naive enough to think that people would not seize on one single word and harp on it until she felt she couldn’t post here anymore. I don’t think it’s to the SDMB’s credit that it went down like this, and that so many people are making her the bad guy, up to and including people fabricating motives for her. Really, she should have changed her username because it makes you think of Traci Lords? She’s an offense troll because she doesn’t want a conversation about her shirt, or any conversation really, to devolve into a discussion of her tits? Wow, what a feminazi bitch! The shrillness of the people defending their right to make SHOW US YER TITS comments is astounding.

Stuff like this is just ludicrous:

Yes, because that’s EXACTLY THE SAME as saying that a shirt makes your boobs look good. It’s a perfect analogy and really pinpoints why Tracy Lord deserved what she got. :rolleyes: Not that you care, FinnAgain, but this thread has permanently changed my opinion of you.

259

She didn’t do that, though. That’s just something you made up. She chose a username that’s a reference to a classic film, something a number of other posters have also done. It happens to be similar to that of a B-movie actress who was a porn star more than 20 years ago. I wouldn’t bet that user Tracy Lord even knew that when she registered, much less that she had some fiendish long-term trolling plan in mind.

*Tracy Lord joined this board as a college freshman in 2004. Believe it or not, 18-19 year old girls usually aren’t that familiar with the names of porn stars from before they were born. Even if she’d heard of Traci Lords, she may have expected that such a classy, non-sleazy board as this would recognize the name of the character from The Philadelphia Story and not be confused. And indeed in her very first thread on the board C K Dexter Haven and Ruby both DID recognize where her username came from. Dex did make a passing reference to Traci Lords, but user Tracy Lord didn’t give any indication then that she even knew who that was. Actually, I see now that several months after joining she Pitted herself for not knowing who the porn star was before choosing her name but said she liked the name and character too much to change.

I don’t see any reason to doubt that she innocently chose the name of a Katharine Hepburn character, and I don’t think that demonstrates any particular ignorance or cluelessness on her part. A woman Tracy Lord’s age when she joined had no reason to be familiar with Traci Lords the former porn star, and if she’d ever seen the actress at all before joining the SDMB it was most likely in guest roles on fairly wholesome shows like The Gilmore Girls or Hercules: The Legendary Journeys.

260

Yes, and this is my sole, limited point.

I said nothing of the kind.

And you can’t engage in a public conversation with hundreds of people you don’t know and expect to get only responses that you like.

I had no opinion on the matter until I read the “I HAD SEX!” thread. Did you read it?

The SDMB is not a cloistered sisterhood. It’s hundreds of random people from a wide range of backgrounds and with a wide range of proclivities. Engage them all at the same time and you should expect to get some crude responses.

And, really, in this case, though some of the responses were crude, they were very mildly so. To the extent that this shows the SDMB up to be crude, it’s less crude than you would find at any college watering hole.

Frankly, the longer this goes on, the less sympathy I have for her. It’s very simple. If you don’t want your body parts talked about by strangers in public, don’t bring up your body parts to strangers in public. And certainly don’t post about losing your virginity (without a condom, to boot).