OK. The problem is, it’s being used to justify some pretty lame behavior.
You can expect that one word won’t be harped on into oblivion, though, can’t you? You can expect that, if you ask people to lay off you, if they’re adults, they will, without trying to turn it around on you. If they’re adults, that is, a debatable point.
Does that thread justify her treatment right now? Do we all have to accept being treated like crap for an ill-advised thread years ago? And it’s not just that. It’s all the rationalizing and demonizing of her going on, especially all the people making shit up about her motives, her username, etc. I think she was a kid who didn’t realize she was going to get the response she got. I don’t think she deserves the ass kicking she’s getting here. You don’t agree. I can live with that.
Oh, for those who have suggested that men would get the same kinds of remarks from women if they posted the same kinds of things, the recent poll threads about masturbation present a nice case study.
These were two threads open in IMHO at about the same time, both asking Dopers to describe how they masturbate. In the women’s thread I count eight responses on the first page from men asking for pictures or saying how they’re masturbating while reading the thread. No woman makes a similar post in the men’s thread. There are no requests for photos. A couple of men make jokes about masturbating to the men’s masturbation thread, but no woman says anything similar. Even if we count the jokes by men in the men’s thread that’s still far fewer than were made by men in the women’s thread.
Men on the Dope who post intimate details about their bodies or sexuality do not get the same kind of drooling replies as women who do the same thing. Heck, men who post intimate details about their bodies or sexuality don’t even get the same kind of drooling replies as women who ask for practical advice on finding a good bra.
No, the SDMB is not your family, it’s not your friends, it’s not your professional colleagues, it’s not any person or group of people you are engaging on a personal level. It’s the world. Your sole expectation is that you will get the full bell curve of behavior. The top of the bell curve may be in the more or less reasonable range, but there will always be outliers.
A couple of people engaged in very mild crudity. That’s not the SDMB treating her like crap.
What do you expect? Everyone’s going to line up in this thread and say “Sorry, you’re right about everything.” The fact is that the majority of people interested enough in this discussion to post think that at the very least she’s being oversensitive and overreacting. That’s not rationalizing and demonizing. That’s disagreeing. And the SDMB as a whole has no obligation to agree with her.
And none of this would have happened if she had just had refrained from starting this whole mess herself. When you make something the subject of a public debate, guess what happens?
No, it’s not the world. It’s a community. She obviously felt too comfortable here, a mistake I’m sure she recognizes and regrets making now. Also, this board likes to tout itself as fighting ignorance and being the smartest message board on the internet. It’s not unreasonable to expect better behavior, if you believe that. Another mistake.
This thread is people treating her like crap. There’s a lot of blaming her going on here, and making shit up about her to justify it.
Where you see simple disagreement, I see rationalizing and demonizing. And the rationalizing bad male behavior happens here all the time. I was the unfortunate recipient of it whenever I stupidly tried to argue that female teachers having sex with their male students was wrong. Women who post in bra threads experience it. Women stupid enough to post about their masturbation habits experience it. It does not go both ways.
She wanted to get a certain behavior to stop, and the normal means of saying, “Please stop” didn’t particularly work. She couldn’t win either way. The only acceptable course of action, it seems, would be taking it in silence. Perhaps that’s what she should have done, but I can’t blame her for not realizing that until it was too late.
And gosh darn it, it’s not fair!
I want to be drooled over and objectified by women!
The next thing somebody will tell me that is men and women are different!
I don’t care about evolution and culture and society and reality,
I demand the world to be the way I want it to be when I come out of my ivory town!
And stop looking at me unless I want you to look at me.
Calling her an attention whore, a troll, and a cocktease and digging up threads from 4+ years ago to embarrass her isn’t just “disagreeing”. Those things have all been done in this thread, mostly after she wasn’t even posting anymore.
FinnAgain says in post #253 above that the same situation probably would have arisen even if she’d just said she liked her shirt because “I look really good in it”. Was there any way she could have asked for help getting a stain out of her favorite shirt without being accused of “starting this whole mess”? Even if she hadn’t mentioned her breasts or looking good at all, she’d still have been guilty of talking about clothing worn OVER the breasts. That’s apparently invitation enough for some, as the comfortable bra thread shows.
If her post had consisted of nothing more than “I have a red wine stain on a white shirt, how can I get it out?” and someone had replied “Step 1: Soak in cold water, Step 2: Put shirt back on and post pic” then Tracy probably would have been blamed for flaunting the fact that she spilled liquid on a white shirt. What did she expect? She was practically begging people to imagine her competing in a wet t-shirt contest!
Men and women are different. Men seem to think they they have some divinely granted right to make comments about women’s bodies whenever they feel like it regardless of context or civility, and if you have the nerve to call them on it, then you’re 10 kinds of humorless, attention whore bitch. If that’s the way it is, don’t expect to be treated like a person capable of being a decent human being. You want to behave as you believe you were culturally and biologically destined to behave? Fine. Don’t whine then, as so many men here do, when you’re treated that way by the media or other posters.
No, it’s a community like a small town is a community. Sure, there are assholes, but you can easily forget that you’re vulnerable to attack for whatever you say. It’s easy to let your guard down, much to your later chagrin. No, everyone is not your friend. But you don’t expect to find that so many people are your enemy.
If you can say “Men seem to think …” then I am free to say:
Women seem to think they have some divinely-granted right to never have comments made about their bodies, regardless of context or civility.
Not all men, obviously. A certain sector of the population, including you. And yes, women do seem to think they have some right not to have comments made about their bodies. When would it be civil to do so? And in this particular context, it wasn’t. You can argue 'til you’re blue in the face that she deserved it, but it just serves to make you look like an asshole.
I dare you, nay beg you to find where dba Fred said “she deserved it”. I have posted links to the 3 threads I posted it and included the post #s in post #257 on this page.
You make the claim, now back it up.
You’re rationalizing why some men behave this way. It’s because of evolution and society and culture! Objecting to it means that you live in “an ivory town.” Her mention of her boobs in the shirt thread justified you bringing it up in the Dream Man thread, right? You’re in the right, Fred. She’s delusional for thinking she could make an innocent comment about the way she looked in a shirt, since evolution and culture and REALITY dictate that some men just cannot control themselves if boobs are mentioned.
Did you say the actual words “she deserved it”? No. Do you think she deserved it? It would be disingenuous as hell to claim that’s not exactly what you’re saying.
So you’re saying now that you DON’T think that Tracy deserved it? Or are you just denying having previously said the exact words “she deserved it” even though you really think she did?
We could play the quote hunting game all day, but that wouldn’t tell the rest of us what you’re really thinking. If you want us to have an accurate picture of your beliefs, you can tell us straight out now whether or not you think Tracy deserved to have comments made about her body. No need to get fancy, “She deserved it” or “She didn’t deserve it” will do.
Lamia and Ruby, quit this absurdity. You are obviously alluding to rape when you use the words “she deserved it”, when in fact the issue under discussion is whether or not a woman who spoke about how sexually attractive her tits are, in public on the internet, should reasonably expect someone to comment on it.
Using language that shows you consider that in any way, shape, or form analogous to fucking rape just makes your arguments look hysterical . If you really feel that “Hey everybody, I have awesome tits!” “Oh yeah? Tell us more about these awesome tits of yours.” “How dare you, nobody talk about my awesome tits!” is in any way a functional analog to being forced into having sex against your will, you are in powerful need of perspective.
"How can I get a red wine stain off a white shirt, please? "
This isn’t rocket science. If, in public, you discuss your attractiveness, expect your attractiveness to be a topic of conversation. Don’t discuss your attractiveness and then get all high and mighty over the fact that someone would dare to discuss the subject you just brought up.
No, that’s obnoxious, because it’s not at all in a sexual context or one of attractiveness. Can you really not see the difference between “Which garment is most comfortable” and “hey everybody reading this thread, you should know that I look smokin’, due to my awesome tits, in this dress”.
If it had happened, it would be obnoxious of the guy.
And even if it had, so fucking what?
Are the women upset about this in this thread really such thin skinned wimps that some guy flirting with/hitting on them is such an upsetting event? Okay, it’s obnoxious, boorish, uncalled for? Fine, granted, whatever. But all this talk about how the woman “was asking for it”, as if she was fucking raped? Is that really a comparison that goes through any of your minds? Is a wolf whistle roughly equivalent to being beaten, dragged into a dark alley and raped? At all?
For fuck’s sake, when I was in college and in the best shape of my life, it wasn’t at all uncommon for women to flirt with me or try to make eye contact. I had a rather attractive woman whistle at me on the street once. A goddamn car full of girls pulled up while I was getting a late dinner and asked me what I was doing and if I wanted to hang out with them for the night. Even years later, once I’d packed on more than a few pounds, I had a 60+ year old woman, out of the blue and at a rather inopportune moment, tell me that she thought I was very handsome. Should I have been pissed off? Maybe started a Pit thread? Women expressed sexual interest in me, sometimes obnoxiously. Why, it was just like I was raped!!!
:rolleyes:
Some people really need to deal with the fact that words, glances, and gestures are in no possible way comparable to actual physical assaults. And if you get all bent out of shape by a little obnoxiousness in your daily life, you should probably find a cabin in the woods somewhere and stay there.
Are you for real? Women, in mixed company, in public, talk about how they masturbate and it’s unreasonable that some men might comment in a sexual manner? For fuck’s sake, if you don’t want people talking about how you masturbate, don’t talk about it in public.
Further, the fact that one thread got more responses than the other is simply evidence that men and women tend to respond differently to sexual matters. The point, that you are missing aggressively, is that if a man posted details about how he jerks off and some woman posted in the thread with “rawwwr!”, there’d be something wrong with him if his response was to get all annoyed that some woman had dared to comment on the facts that he just made public knowledge.
It’s really not a complicated concept here. If you don’t want people talking about your sexuality, don’t bring it up in public. If you do, expect people to respond. And if it makes you uncomfortable, sure, say so. But don’t expect to get much sympathy except from the Offenderati when you cop a self righteous trip about how unfair it was that people responded to your sexual statements that you made in public.
Why, yes, yes it is. What possible distinction do you see? “This [part of my anatomy which I am discussing in a purely sexual context] is good.” Yeah, her tits are “amazing” in, ya know, an abstract Platonic sense. Not as a sexual signal for men. Right.
Yeah! A woman indicates that she wants people to talk about her tits in a sexual context, then people talk about her tits in a sexual context. Why, she might as well have been raped! And then murdered! And then had her flesh eaten by cannibals! That bitch was asking for it! Oh good gods, the humanity, the humanity!
The character’s name from the 1940’s film is remarkably similar to the porn star’s name. Which is exactly what I said. And again, as I pointed out, even if she really was ignorant that her chosen user name was similar to the most famous porn star of all time, she certainly found out pretty quick and instead of changing to another user name, kept the same one and used the similarity to be scornful of those who wondered if it was a reference to the porn star. See, for instance, the last line of her OP in this thread.
You missed the part about how she decided not to change her user name because she liked it too much… *and still enjoys the ability to feel superior to those who think it has something to do with the porn start rather than a fairly obscure movie that’s almost 70 years old. * She wants to keep the user name? Fine, no problem. She wants to keep it and has such a thin skin that she’ll voice her disdain for those who think it has something to do with the porn star? That’s offense trolling, and rather obnoxious to boot. “Oh, I know where the name is from, why don’t you? What are you, some uncultured, perverted boorish fellow? Porn star? As if! Pish tosh!”
Well, no. Witness Hal Briston, who was heartily sick of the sheep thing long before the Dope decided to move on. I contend that “Hal fucks sheep, harhar” is just as offensive, if not more so, than “can we see a picture of your ‘amazing’ boobs”? Being the butt of any joke for too long is hurtful. TL’s had a few mentions, this thread (that she started!) and less than a week at it. Hal’s went on for months.
I don’t get this whole Traci is an Innocent Victim meme going on in this thread. ANY one who posts about losing their virginity can hardly expect kid glove treatment later on. To post that this blouse makes “my boobs look amazing” is not quite on, either. How about “I look amazing in this blouse?”–she drew attention to herself (again) and should have expected fallout.
I think she’s a bit of an attention whore, but don’t think it’s anything but immaturity on her part. Neither do I defend or excuse the morons who make the lame joke re “cite?” and “we need a picture as evidence”–I dislike that form of “flirting”, but here’s the rub: many people here and in RL do like it: many people, including women. It’s not my thing and I probably wouldn’t date a man who said such things, but so much depends on the delivery of the line, the tone of voice, the intent, the context, that maybe I would. I highly doubt any of the men meant any harm.
There’s at least 2 levels of conversation/disagreement going on here. One is the face value of this thread: X can’t mention x without expecting Y to refer to y . The other is “how do we refer to female body parts in general conversation? What misconstructions and misunderstandings come about when we do?” IOW, what happens when someone mentions x, meaning x[sub]1[/sub], but it is taken by someone else to mean y? And what about when X drags in x[sub]2[/sub]? How many x’s are there? And when does y ever get to be discussed or joked about?
Is it wrong of a woman to discuss her body parts in general public? (I’d say yes, in a way–as wrong as it is of anyone to mention various bodily functions in public, but I digress). The answer should be no, with caveats (does anyone really want to know how much moisture one vagina can produce upon arousal or how much mucus one can produce with a head cold? I thought not). But human nature being what it is, titillation can be perceived when none is meant. ESPECIALLY on a message board where tone, intent, body language etc is lacking. I’d like both parties to be able to speak as freely as they feel they can, but all parties should realize that there are no general standards of behavior on the internet.
So, as much as I find it distasteful to defend the immaturity shown by some Dopers, I have to side with them. Traci Lord has been on this board for too long to now cry, “why are you all treating little me so badly?” Since she’s taken her toys and gone home, the point it moot.
What I think we can take away from this is that perhaps the males who feel driven to post comments that don’t seem to match the tone of the threads re female body parts should think again. But if they still think it’s ok to post whatever they were going to, then they should. Otherwise we are asking them to self-censor, which cannot be good for the board long-term. If women here expect the men to do otherwise, then we have become (again) the arbiters of acceptable behavior, the gatekeepers for those cavemen, if you will, and I doubt anyone wants that. Everyone should be in charge of themselves and responsible for their own behavior.
And perhaps the female Dopers here who are so up in arms about this relative tempest in a teapot should examine why they feel so strongly about this. Traci Lord is not a poster child for oppressed women. There’s plenty of sexism going around on all sides here.
This whole thing kind of reminds me of meenie(27?) and the pixar loving ghost. You know, someone says something as a throwaway and then threads pile up about it. It seems less directly about sexism and more the fact that some people just say things without thinking. But on a message board, where you can go back and read (as opposed to say a conversation) everything still exists.
Jesus christ, how many years ago was the virginity thing? So forever and ever amen people will have to drag around every word they say to be brought up later in future threads? I mean, I realize we (over time) develop opinions about people based on their words here but what you’re suggesting borders on ridiculous.
I’ve seen you participate in the occasional relationship thread. Should people say “Oh why are you here? Why would I want the opinion of someone who stays in a terrible marriage to give me advice?!”
IMHO, that wouldn’t be fair to you yet some of these men and a few old shrews in this thread want to brand Tracy with a scarlet A for attention whore because she DARED to say that she liked a blouse because it made her waist tiny and her boobs amazing.
Why should they think again, when clearly there are plenty of people willing to stand up in defense of their ‘caveman’ behavior?
Asking people to refrain from posting the first bit of stupidity that floats to the top of their heads is not asking for board-killing self-censorship.
