FinnAgain has introduced the topic of rape, male masturbation, the right to flirt, the male biological imperative, and offense trolling. Surely you’re also going to direct your ire for the hijacks of this thread toward him? Since I did address Tracy’s situation per Carmady’s request. The thread has gone all over the place, and it ain’t just me taking it there.
I’m not expressing any ire toward you or anyone else … I’m giving my perspective on why there seems to be so many instances of talking past each others’ points/taking offense/righteous indignation in this thread.
If it will help all participants to focus on a single topic, I will remove the pink shirt I’m wearing today.
Ruby, why are you arguing about the content of a come on? As a woman you have to realize that the content of a come on is irrelevant; if you like the guy using it, you won’t find it offensive. If you think the guy is creepy, you’ll find the come on creepy. The line may as well be “blah blah blah” for all it matters.
This is the great truth that nice guys hate to hear. There is no magic line. It’s not the line that women don’t like; women just don’t like them.
Of course the appropriateness can also be determined by the situation. Sunday brunch may not be the smartest place to bring out the “show us your tits!” line, but Cancun on Spring Break? Might just work.
Because it has been established that the original flirting was appropriate to the situation, what is it, exactly, that you’re arguing? Inappropriate flirting is inappropriate? Is that really the point that has your hackles up? Seems like a given to me, and probably everyone else.
Determining what is or isn’t appropriate flirting is up to the person doing it. Not you. If you’re the flirtee, your job is to let them know if they got it right or not. Either way, hopefully they’ll learn from it for next time. (Of course, since every woman is different, your feedback isn’t gospel, but rather just another datapoint to add to the mix.)
Also, it is common knowledge that “she was asking for it” invokes a parallel to rape, much like “she didn’t listen” invokes a parallel to wife beating, much like “you people” invokes racism, etc… It’s well-known code.
That’s not true. I’ve been hit on by men I wasn’t interested in that didn’t make me feel creepy. It’s all about what you say and how you say it.
You seem to think it’s a great truth, but really, maybe what you said or how you said it was creepy. You don’t have to be Brad Pitt to avoid offending women. Like I said, just a little social grace.
Did you miss the fact that it continued after she asked it to stop? Then she did what people are recommending in the ATMB thread: rather than reporting it or responding in the wrong forum, she opened a Pit thread, and got called an attention whoring, cockteasing offense troll. Could it be that raising my hackles? I don’t think she deserved the drubbing she got (note for the reading impaired: this is a usage of the word “deserved” that does not allude to rape.)
Fortunately, I never said it was up to me. But the flirter is responsible for not being a jerk, an esoteric concept apparently. People are up in arms because I had the nerve to say that, if you’re not sure if you’re going to creep a woman out, rethink what you were going to say. I thought it was common sense, but apparently it’s not.
I asked dba Fred if he thought Tracy Lord deserved being followed into another thread and asked again about her boobs, because she made the mistake of using that word in the shirt thread. How the hell is that equating anything to rape? The word “deserved” has meaning outside of a rape parallel. You’re not going to browbeat me into admitting that I was alluding to rape. I wasn’t, and you and FinnAgain and whoever else should really just take me at my word on this. Or not, but I will correct you every time you try to make my words mean something they didn’t. With any luck you’ll get tired of saying it soon.
I wasn’t talking about “deserved”, I was talking abourt “asking for it.” I think I was pretty clear. Are you deliberately misrepresenting what I wrote? Surely someone who argued about the clear distinction between “amazing boobs” and “made my boobs look amazing” wouldn’t substitute “deserved” for “asking for it”, right? Seems disingenuous to me.
Also, you contradict yourself:
You strongly implied it with this:
What is this other than you recommending guys flirt in a way that “is non-offensive even to people who aren’t going to reciprocate”? That’s what I was responding to; it’s not up to you to determine what that is. Your example of “show me your tits” seems to be an illustration of “bad” flirting. Again, it’s not your call to make.
ETA:
This doesn’t refute my point. And nice personal attack you threw in there, btw. Stay classy.
In the interest of fairness/accuracy, that’s not what dba Fred did. I’m not sure where I stand on the issue of his posts in the dreamy co-worker thread, but perpetuating a false idea about the issue isn’t going to solve anything.
She wasn’t called cockteasing.
Her unfounded cry of sexism painted her as a martyr at best, an attention whoring offense troll at worst. Seemed like a reasonable reaction to me. If that’s what got your hackles up, and you agree that her claim of sexism was unfounded, is your participation in this thread nothing more than a prolonged knee-jerk reaction? Or do you think it’s sexism?
Nobody is up in arms because you advise they try to flirt appropriately. They are up in arms from the suggestion that they aren’t allowed to flirt.
Since I never said “asked for it,” only “deserved it,” then you’re obviously not talking to me at all.
It was Tracy’s call to make and she made it, but was heaped with scorn for doing so. That’s what I object to.
Please quote precisely where I made a personal attack on you. I felt you were browbeating me to admit something that I didn’t say. That’s not a personal attack.
Of course you’re allowed to flirt. Everything I said, right down to refuting your idea that only attractive men can get away with not being seen as creepy, states that. But here on the internet, we’re strangers. You have to be careful what you say to strangers. That goes for both sides of the equation. Tracy should have been more careful too, obviously.
Am I really getting anywhere by continuing to post to this thread? I think this topic is pretty much done. I’m pretty tired of talking about it and feel that all I’m doing is correcting misapprehensions of things I said pages and pages ago. It’s a waste of time.
Then what have you been doing this whole thread? You never linked to any other examples and never said you were changing the topic. You certainly never made any acknowledgment about Tracy’s accusations being unfounded.
That is dishonest debating. At what point in the thread did you decide to change the topic? I hope you haven’t spent the last 10 pages arguing something trivial like “if the responses had been inappropriate, they would have been inappropriate.”
This is yet another example of revisionist history.
Once Tracy made accusations of sleaze and sexism, people began responding to those accusations. They were no longer just responding to the original post.
Do you think it is “impolite” to respond to an unfounded accusation of sexism?
Or is sexism such a minor thing that there is no need to respond?
The topic has been changed MANY TIMES by many people over the course of 10 pages. I have acknowledged that I don’t think it was sexism, but that there is sexism here on the Dope. I could go back in the thread and point out where I said that, but I think you should do that, and then apologize to me.
I decided to change the topic? Isn’t FinnAgain also doing that, when he talks about the biological imperative to flirt, and rape, and masturbation, and all sorts of off topic shit? Why are you all up my ass about it when it’s bound to be rampant in an 11 page thread? Really.
Was the shirt topic not brought up in the dreamy co-worker thread? Is that not continuing the discussion of her shirt after she asked it to stop?
Respond away, but I think the responses were a bit over the top. YMMV.
I think Ellis Dee made my point for me. The content is largely irrelevant. You are arguing with your own standards which don’t apply to other women, who’s concept of “acceptable” or “unacceptable” vary greatly. Certain women in certain situations will be receptive to something as crude as “show me your tits” while other women in other situations will be offended if I walk up smiling and say “Hello”.
I tend to not flirt unless I’m “pretty sure” the woman will be receptive (as that’s the point, right?), but I must have been wrong at some point and it’s likely I’ve offended someone. In my book, you either have to rule out flirting altogether, or risk offending someone at some point.
Damn, you are dense. I directed my earlier comments at you because you seemed to be suggesting that Tracy Lord’s “make my boobs look amazing” comment did not have sexual connotations/overtones. I pointed to a clearly non-sexual reference to breasts in hopes that the comparison would aid your comprehension of how ABSO- FUCKING-LUTELY DIFFERENT the two references were. You take the exit ramp to Irrelevantville/Redundanton so you can visit the shop that sells bags of “some folks have different opinions” and cartons of “hyperbole.” I kindly guide you back onto to the interstate of idea exchange and you accuse me of bandwagoning and redundancy. That’s a summary of what an unfunny dumbass you are.
For the record, just so we’re clear - Tracy Lord’s “makes my boobs look amazing” comment would be perceived by most folks familiar with modern American English and current idioms and innuendo as being a sexualized comment. You’re assertions to the contrary are naive. Admit this and you shall never read another post from me in this thread.
Use your judgement. If the woman asks you to stop, stop. Don’t try to say she was a cocktease who provoked you. This is not brain surgery here.
Yes, that’s exactly what I’m saying. No one should EVER flirt. Good job interpreting my words.
I’m done here.
While true, I can understand how my remarks caused some confusion.
omgzebras posted a hypothetical about a non-tracy woman talking to folks after a line about how she, herself, had sometimes misinterpreted signals.
I did, indeed, change the subject a bit and (also using a hypothetical non-tracy woman), said:
I admit that I probably shouldn’t have brought the discussion into a point in Hypothetical Land two steps removed from the actual example, but I do believe that I was correct when I pointed out that in common parlance, a woman who was acting flirtatously while pretending it was innocent behavior in order to fish for compliments/flirting was being a might be called cocktease.
I admit it probably wasn’t the best example and, again, it was two hypothetical steps removed from the actual topic of this thread (Tracy —> a women who might misintrepret signals and women in general who might imply things they didn’t indend —> women who directly address men and not mixed internet group swith sexual banter and then fail to understand that they’ve brought up a sexual topic or don’t care and are deliberately trying to get a rise out of the men just so they can smack them down). But I didn’t call Tracy, herself, a cock tease. I don’t think she was fishing for compliments or trying to seduce anybody, I think she was most likely setting about to be an attention whoring offense troll. I made my views on that point quite clear, and only used the word “cocktease” once, in reference to a non-tracy hypothetical situation.
It’s interesting, though, that it got picked up as a rallying cry by the coterie here and used to show how cruelly put upon Tracy was. “Zomg! She was called a cocktease!!! After people were repeatedly asking to see her tits and justifying it just like rapists justify rape!”
Everyone uses their own judgment. The problem is, that can still get you in to situations where, despite your best efforts, you nevertheless offend someone. What I take issue with is the implication that the man is necessarily at fault in those cases, which seems to be an underlying assumption here.
ETA: If you happen to reply to me here again, considering being a little less hostile to those who’ve done nothing but disagree with you.
Speaking of dense, do you really think you pointed out something that others have not said? And you said you’ve read the entire thread; hard to believe when you continue to insist that you have an original point. This has been stated many, many times - people believe that “boobs are always sexual”. I get it. I happen to disagree; even in mixed company I have heard references to boobs that were not intended to be and were not taken as sexual references. I’m not sure why that crushes you so, or why you are so intent on pursuing this point.
I saw the post you originally quoted, and while it certainly was non-sexual, I believe that TL’s original quote could legitimately be taken that way as well. She said that was her intent, I see from her posts that she is quite young and very likely treating the Dope as if she were talking to her close friends. I don’t have any reason to call her a liar and since my experiences even if not others’ have proved to me that her assertion could be true, what does it cost me to believe her?
You seem to feel the need to shout down my viewpoint because it doesn’t jive with yours. I’m sorry that it makes you uncomfortable that I hold different opinions than yours. I’m sure my experiences are different than yours as well. That’s life.
No. You do not get it. I’ve never written or even intimated that the mention of “boobs” is “always” sexual, quite the opposite. Moreover, that you can draw the conclusions that you have regarding the “makes my boobs look amazing” statement only confirms the diagnosis of your density. Have fun wandering through life misunderstood.
FinnAgain, can you offer one cite of me equating flirting with rape? Please, post it. Otherwise, you’re a fucking troll and that’s about the size of it.
Have you offended many woman with your flirtation? Being rejected isn’t evidence of offense. If you’re a decent guy, you probably haven’t offended much, if ever. I have rarely taken offense to what was earnest, sincere flirtation. But comparing that to what goes on here on the internet is frankly absurd. This isn’t real flirting. There’s no honest hope or intention to hook up or date or anything in these comments. It’s less about the male sex drive or anything about what men and women really do in bars or at parties, and more about making corny, lame jokes that yes, can offend, from the comfort of relative anonymity. I think the whole topic of “flirting” is a red herring here, don’t you? This is a hijack of a thread about behavior on the SDMB that some women find annoying. Tracy Lord’s situation was a jumping off point for some of us to discuss our feelings about that. You can see the reception we’ve gotten, and how far afield the conversation has gotten from that.
Couple of things: this is an 11 page thread. People have been lying about what I’ve said, twisting my words, deliberately and inadvertently misreading me, and asking me to say things I’ve already said. I’ve been called a troll, a liar, a cow, a prude, and several other unpleasant names for the crime of disagreeing with the other side of this argument. I’ve reached a point of fatigue here. You telling me I’m actually trying to abolish flirting altogether tries my patience. I hope you can understand why. I am trying to communicate honestly, but it’s been damn near impossible to keep the thread on track, to keep the tone civil, etc. If I snapped at you, I’m sorry, but really, please try not to buy FinnAgain’s version of what I’m saying. It’s flagrantly inaccurate.
Listen you stupid liar, you revolting troll, shut the fuck up, okay? We’ve been through this. You equated the thought process that rapists and evil flirters use to justitfy doing what they do to their “victims” (again, real victim in the case of rape, laughably transparent rhetorical flatulence when you try to allege that women are the ‘victims’ of improper flirting).
I have, in fact, posted your quote more than once. I just recently did it here.
Now:
-stop lying
-stop trolling
-especially stop lying in order to troll me
-shut the fuck up, put me back on your ignore list, and then shut the fuck up some more.
You can start shutting the fuck up any time now.
THAT is your proof?!? That I said that the process of “blaming the victim” is the same regardless of the context in which the victim is blamed? YOU introduced the word “rape” into this conversation because I used the word “deserve,” in order to muddy the waters and fan the flames of your outrage. Blaming the victim (the word “victim” need not be interpreted with such shrill extremism as you choose to force upon it) is a phenomenon as old as human beings and predates the idea of “she asked for it” by several millenia. Anyone called upon bad behavior of any kind who responds with self-righteousness towards the person they upset is “blaming the victim.” Your attempts to force a connection between what I said and rape are bullshit fabrications. You should stop now because you sound like an hysteric, and are proving yourself to be an offense troll, which is incredibly ironic considering all the times you called me and others that name.
I have zero intention of shutting the fuck up, Sparky. I fully intend to call you out on your deliberate, trolling misconstruction of what I said every time you try to say it. You can put me on ignore if you don’t like it, or you can stop. Your choice. The more you scream, the more you insult me, the more fun it becomes for me to parry your every attempt to lie about me. So, it’s up to you, troll.