Again, I know you’re stupid enough to lie when I only have to quote you, and in fact when I just quoted you, again, directly making a comparison between flirting and rape, but seriously:
-shup the fuck up
-stop lying
-stop trolling me
-stop lying in order to troll me
-shut the fuck up even harder
Here, you can practice now.
Take the next lie you’re thinking of vomiting up, and shut the fuck up about it.
Take the next desire of yours to troll me by lying about what you’ve said, and lying to claim that I made it up when I can quote you, and realize that you sound like a shit-stupid troll, and shut the fuck up about it.
I realize you’re not too swift, but I’m sure that with practice you can master the complicated mechanics of shutting the fuck up.
P.S. Lying, in order to claim that I am, when I can fucking quote you is really stupid, even for you.
I mean that, I mean, really, really stupid, even for what you’ve shown so far.
So go back to your gradeschool bullshit of putting me on your ignore filter and bragging about it, go be outraged about men flirting without obtaining the permission of a committee or being able to engage their psychic powers and know a woman’s reaction ahead of time…
and shut the fuck up.
OK, let’s figure this out once and for all. Who derailed this thread into a discussion of rape? Do a search of the this thread. The first mention of rape is from you in post #251, in your reply to omgzebras, who used the phrase “She was asking for it.”
Then, you address me and Lamia, again bringing up the word rape when neither of us had, in post #275, because we used the phrase “deserved it,” which in your tiny little world cannot possibly have any other meaning than a rape allusion. You were obviously offense trolling at this point, and I foolishly engaged you, not realizing your game. That is when I pointed out that no one was talking about rape but you.
You, of course, were undeterred in your trolling, and called me a liar. This is when I put you on ignore, but despite that, you brought it up a couple of more times. Robot Arm, Discipline, and Sleeps With Butterflies all told you that you were off your rocker, but you were having too much fun underneath your bridge.
Once again foolishly, I waded back in to confront you. Moo. That is when I said, “The tactic of blaming the victim is the same, whether it’s rape or whatever…” Whether it’s rape, or WHATEVER else you might be fucking talking about, in this case, annoying someone on the internet. Want a cite? In literature, blaming the victim dates back to the Book of Job. The comforters of Job were not alluding to rape. Daniel Patrick Moynihan coined the term. He was not alluding to rape. So, whether it’s rape or whatever, the process is the same. Self-righteous pricks like you don’t want to be called on bad behavior, so it must be the fault of the person you behaved badly towards. No allusion to rape. Just a process of diverting blame off yourself when you don’t want to be a grown up, admit you were wrong, and move on.
Have I now comprehensively debunked your bullshit?
Nope, not shutting the fuck up. Can keep going with this as long as you persist in your deliberate misconstruction of me. You of course can choose to shut the fuck up at any time, thus ending the need for me to keep defending myself against your very serious but also very ridiculous accusations. Up to you.
Apparently I’m not. You risk offending someone any time you say anything to anyone ever. I accept that. I live in the world. But if you make an earnest attempt at a connection, I think you’re unlikely to rampantly offend people as TRacy Lord was offended in this situation. I’m really not sure what else there is to say.
Are you even listening to yourself, you fucking idiot?
If I’d prefer you shut the fuck up and went back to yelling at your TV, or whatever it is you do for fun, how the fuck an I be trolling you for a response? I don’t want any response from you. I’d be happy if you shut the fuck up.
If I want you to shut the fuck up, how can I also want you to keep spewing pure liquid stupid at me?
Makes no sense, does it, moron?
Yes, this is the point. You are unlikely to rampantly offend someone. Sometimes, you still do. When is it appropriate to lay the blame for that offense solely at the feet of the offender? Certainly not when the offendee has willingly and knowingly made choices that make it highly likely they would receive attention that would offend them.
I’d probably still say “sorry” even if I thought the other person was being unreasonable. Like that time in high school the guy followed me home because I cut him off getting in to the left turn lane. Oops, sorry, but why the hell are you following me home? Relax.
Of course you’re right, the initial attention that her comment got was par for the course, and pretty much everyone who has posted to this thread has conceded that Tracy did open the door to such comments as were initially made to her, but when she expressed offense, they should have stopped. They didn’t, thus this clusterfuck of a thread. So, it’s not solely at the feet of the offender at first. However, the offenders have admitted to no wrongdoing, as far as I recall, and their right to do what they did has been defended in some pretty stunning terms. That, to me, is the problem.
Because you have manners and are not an asshole. These things are not a given.
Thing is, she gets that. She’s feigning non-comprehension currently because it lets her carry on, but she’s not really that stupid that when she says that men should refrain, 100% entirely, “altogether” from flirting unless they already know how a woman would react, that she’s in fact saying that men should not flirt at all until they already know how the woman will react.
She’s not a special needs case, she just plays one on the Dope.
You’ll also notice that she totally dodged the point of whether or not a guy can flirt if he doesn’t know the woman’s potential response with 100% certainty, and went on to shift the topic to Tracy’s dreadful victimization. Chances are she’ll later feign non-comprehension at that, too.
Wow, you just never stop, do you? Really, you can commence shutting the fuck up any time you want, or you can keep trolling. Obviously, you WANT me to keep addressing you or you’d stop talking about me. This must be as fun for you as it is for me.
See, troll, you still need to improve your trolling.
I get it, you’ve decided to troll by pretending to have a mild case of mental retardation. It’s not exactly a wise strategy as it’s roughly equivalent to your crapping your pants in order to embarrass the people around you, but I understand that you aren’t able to figure out anything much better.
Let’s take one of your more, well, retarded attempts recently. When caught red handed with the same quote for something like the third time in a row? A quote which proved that you’re lying through your teeth when you troll about how you’ve never equated those who excuse “victimizing” people by flirting and those who victimize people by raping them… your troll was that, sure, you compared excusing flirting to excusing raping, but you also compared it to a lot of other stuff!
This is retarded trolling for several reasons.
First of all it’s blatantly stupid. “You said A is like B”, “No I didn’t, I said A is like B, C and D also! You’re lying!”
See, troll, there’s something we like to call a “syllogism”. Say it slowly with me “Sill” “oh” “jism” (oops, I’m victimizing you with that word. I hope you aren’t too horribly scarred). Anyway, “syllogism”. If A = B, and B = C, then A = C.
So, put it all together, think real hard…
People who excuse their “victimizing” someone via flirting by saying she “deserved it”, are doing the same thing as how rapists excusing their victimization of women by saying that the women “deserved” it, and that’s the same as people saying other victims “deserved” it.
A = B, and B = C.
So do A and C equal each other?
You can use scrap paper at this point.
Second, you when you call something a lie and then repeat the same thing that you just said was a lie, you not only look stupid, but you look incompetent at baiting people into a response. It leaves it clear that not only are you determined to lie about what you’ve actually said, but that you’re not even a very good liar.
See, rubyshriek, it just makes you look like an idiot as well as an incompetent troll. And you were already looking pretty stupid and your trolling is decidedly sub-par. If you’re going to troll, at least troll better. Saying that your own words, which I quote, are “lies” is also retarded. Again, you’ve taken a big ol’ dump in your pants. “Stop lying by quoting my words at me that say what I’m claiming I didn’t say! That’s no fair! My words am dah lie! My other words am dah truth! Until I contradict myself again, then they’ll be dah lie if you quote them, two!”
Oh, and, by the way? After graduating from “Nyeh nyeh, I can’t heaaaaaaaaar you!” to “I know you are but what I am!”, you’re kind of, yet again, tipping your hand when you admit that in your mind, someone who asks another person to shut up but then talks about them with a third person is really trolling by inviting responses.
You’re wrong, of course (I really would be thrilled if you’d shut the fuck up), but what matters it that you think it’s the case.
Because, ya know… that’s what you’ve been doing.
Good lord are you ever stupid.
Now, in your own words, you’ve described your own behavior as trolling and admitted that you think that someone who talks about someone else wants them to respond.
Yet another pair of rubyshriek’s pants, full of shit, in the hopes that I’ll be embarrassed by having anything to do with someone with a big ol’ pile of shit in their pants. It’s embarrassing for you, I’m sure, but I’m not much bothered.
And no, I sincerely want you to shut the fuck up rubyshriek, (good use of copying my words like a monkey, bitch. When I point out you’re trolling, say lie and say I’m trolling. When I catch you in a lie, call your own words a lie. When I ask you to shut the fuck up, don’t even pretend to be creative, just babble the same words right back at me).
And most importantly, put me back on your ignore list (just like you bragged about). I’ll happily point out whenever you lie again, as I’m sure you can’t help yourself at this point, and you can keep lying and not have to read all the times I catch you contradicting your own very, very clear quotes.
Mmm kay?
Mmm kay.
I look forward to you putting me back on your ignore filter.
FinnAgain, so again, you have nothing but name-calling, shit-flinging insults? Nothing of substance, right? Yeah, that’s what I thought. If you think I’m the one who’s looking bad in this exchange, I think you might want to think again. Don’t hurt yourself or anything, but try it out.
Or you can put me on your ignore feature. I know you won’t because you’re enjoying yourself too much, since being outraged and dumping insults on people is what you like best. But I’m not going away, I’m not going to ignore your lies. I might be allowing you to troll me, though, which is regrettable. You’re very good.
Hey **FinnAgain **? If you think women are only ever told they ‘deserved it’ in cases of rape (versus assault, workplace harassment, street crime, stalking, molestation, unwanted attention) you’re sadly mistaken. The whole reason sex crimes and harassment are a legal and ethical quagmire is because there is the underlying assumption that the victim was complicit, to some degree. Rape is a far stretch from navigating tasteless jokes online, but there are a million little steps in between.
While I’m not really a fan, Rita Rudner once told a joke that stuck in my mind—warning against starting a game of “peek-a-boo” with a child sitting in the seat in front of you on an airplane. It never ends for them, she said.
But you’re conflating several issues. The first is that the use of the phrase “she was asking for it” was used in this thread in order to conflate flirting with rape, and then some folks denied that there was any such connotation to the phrase. Anybody who doubts it should ask 10 colleagues/coworkers what the first thing that pops into their mind when they hear the phrase “She was asking for it”.
If any fewer than 9/10’s have their minds go to the most common ‘excuse’ for rape, I’d be surprised.
Further, as some posters explicitly stated even in the process of trying to deny what they were doing, they were saying that both rapists and people who flirt with women who aren’t receptive use the same thought process. Ignoring the distinction between the two is absurd, and despite the rather risible protestations of the usual suspects, the agenda behind such comparisons is hardly all that hard to spot. It’s like saying that both Nazis and Democrats wanted political power. And when called on your comparison, you retreat to saying “Sure, Nazis and Democrats but also the PTA and military juntas! I wasn’t in any way comparing Democrats and Nazis, I was comparing Democrats, Nazis, and the PTA!”
There is simply so much daylight between violently forcing yourself, sexually, upon a non-consenting human being, and words that are spoken that someone takes offense at that to even put the two in any sort of analogous relationship betrays a truly slimy agenda at work.
The second is that saying someone “deserved” something makes it seem like some sort of crime/significant transgression/punishment has been visited upon them. Of course, some people are disingenuous and want to get a full dose of Victim Cred without ever admitting what they’re angling for when talking about how they’ve been victimized by someone saying “hey baby”, or whatever. But to most people, elevating obnoxiousness to the level that one “deserved” it and was made a “victim” by it is, to put it mildly, rather obviously histrionics designed to manufacture offense and drama.
Further, as we’ve already seen, folks like Ruby want to prohibit flirting altogether online unless the entirety of a committee (still not defined as ‘merely’ either all the people posting in a thread or everybody who might even be lurking in the thread) approves, and that men should 100% refrain from flirting with a woman unless he already know how he’ll be received. And, of course, rather than admitting that their agenda is to limit male sexuality to the point where a man cannot act unless he’s gotten prior approval or committee approval, they prevaricate and obfuscate and tap dance around the issue. And this feeds into the same bullshit which refuses to admit that women are, just like men, responsible for some of the situations they get into/cause. Situations which obviously include giving a group of the opposite sex the signal that you’re receptive to flirting and obviously do not include having someone beat the living daylights out of you and forcing sex upon you.
I pointed it out above, and I can reiterate, that the reason bombast about “oh yeah, so she was asking for it?” or “Oh, so she deserved it, eh?” was used was because the offense trolling obviously falls short if, instead, the situation is phrased honestly “Oh, so a woman who mentions how sexually attractive her breasts are, in a mixed group on an online internet message board, should realize that she’s just broached a topic of conversation that can legitimately be interpreted as a valid topic at that point. Oh wait…”
It has to be cast in terms of victims, and helpless women best by rapist-mentality men, and yadda yadda yadda.
Because otherwise it’s clear that there’s just not much cause for offense, and the Victim Cred withers on the vine and there can be no outrage party.
Actually, the perfectly valid assumption is that things shouldn’t be judged in a vacuum. Asking questions like “did you say ‘no’?” can be offensive to those who crave offense, but determining whether or not there was a clear bright line in certain situations is simply a necessary question. One never consents to be murdered or robbed, for instance, but people do consent for sex all the time. Which is why figuring out whether or not there was consent for one is important but nobody needs to ask "So, did you say “please don’t rob my house at any point?”
Sure, actual crimes should always be prosecuted to the full extent of the law, but let’s not pretend that every allegation is an actual crime or that finding out what exactly happened and what the circumstances are are somehow extraneous details in finding out what happened when a very serious charge is leveled. It sucks, but let’s be honest here, sometimes accusations of crimes like rape absolutely are trumped up. Ignoring that women like Crystal Gail Magnum and Tawana Brawley exist. Let alone the statistics that show that false accusations of rape are sometimes disturbingly common, exactly because so many have such a kneejerk reaction to the subject.
Likewise, context is essential even in non-violent situations. If a woman comes into work wearing a dramatically low cut blouse, is it then ‘sexual harassment’ if some guy lets his eyes linger a few seconds too long when she bends over to pick up a pen, or what have you? If it is, we’re back to women being helpless Victims cruelly set upon by guys with rapist mentalities. Which is silly.
And yes, I’d be cash that at least someone would respond to an issue like that by stating that men should simply be expected not to look and that anybody who points out the facts of human biology has allowed them to distort male sexuality as ‘being a caveman who can’t control himself, and what, are you saying ‘that bitch was askin’ for it!?!?’ ".
It does betray sexism and a deep seated need to control other people on the part of the people who champion such nonsense. Imagine if, instead, it was a man who told a mixed group of women about his talents at oral sex, and then got all bent out of shape when some women responded with “O reaallly?” Would we decry his horrible victimization? Claim that the women “offenders” who victimized him were thinking just like rapists do when they excuse their crimes? Would we talk about how frail he was and how he needed protection from words which he didn’t like?
Or would we tell him that if he didn’t want something to be a topic of conversation he shouldn’t have brought it up, and once he did he certainly could say it made him feel uncomfortable, but to bloviate about how horrible it was to be victimized as cruelly as he was would make him a thin skinned wimp who should be able to deal with mere words rather than comparing them to illegal actions let alone violent sexual attack?
“Nazism is a far stretch from Democrats trying to govern the US, but there are a million little steps in between.”
The point is that there is so very, very much daylight between the two that any comparison is not only horribly inapt, but makes a comparision which is simply not warranted, at all.
I’ve given some thought to the specific act that touched off this firestorm, dbaFred’s post in the “hot new co-worker” thread. My conclusions:
It was not in any way like a “show me your tits” comment
It was not flirting or sexual
It was not sexist
It was not obnoxious or jerkish
It was mild, friendly teasing of the kind that friends or casual acquaintances engage in, the kind of teasing I think we should expect fellow Dopers to be able to handle with grace and humor, or, at worst, ignore.
Anyway, I guess I might as well turn in my Man Card, because I get a little uncomfortable when other guys start woofing at a woman’s casual mention of her boobs, just like I feel uncomfortable when I see a woman receiving catcalls from construction workers just for the heinous crime of walking down the street.
I don’t think the occaisional joking comment is a big deal, though, and it’s possible I may have made one or two before. But I’m a man, and as such, I haven’t been subjected to the demeaning comments, leers etc. that many women have to endure every.single.day. I don’t blame anyone for getting sick of it and going off.
I love women’s breasts; I think that they are some of the most beautiful things ever, but I’m well aware that acting like a junior high kid (or worse) about them is not only pointless, but also contributes to the age-old crap that women are thoroughly sick of, and I just don’t like seeing it continue to happen.
Sometimes a joke’s a joke; it’s just hard to tell sometimes, and if I was a woman, I’d probably default to a “STFU, you leering moron” attitude.
Thank you for figuring it out acsenray. I’ll go so far to say that some could see it as I was mildly obnoxious or mildly jerkish.
Since I only control what I communicate, this is the timeline of my participation:
My gripe (if you will) is that TL kept moving away from her original wording to using a “sanitized” version of her original words, I considered her trying for “plausible deniability.” So I called her on it.
on 3/02/09 Women and “signals” my posts are #36 & #38 Her reply (37) was “Okay, that’s fair enough.”
Because she was continuing to paraphrase and not use her original wording, I pointed out that she had chosen the words she had posted.
on 3/03/09 Red wine stains my post is #30
I admit I was needling her here (and being funny, at least in my own mind) and figured there might be more fireworks, but I did use her own words.
on 3/1909 Wow, our new hire is my dream guy my posts are #11 & #14
And I stopped when she asked me to.
I wasn’t flirting with TL or stalking her; why waste the time and effort on a person 5000+ miles away (based on profile locations), especially when* amazing* boobs are freely available on the internet, not to mention in real-life.
Early on in the Pit thread I considered asking Tracy if an apology from me would soothe her. I wasn’t of a mind to apologize so it would have said something like “I’m sorry you don’t stick by your original words and am sorry you don’t have a sense of humor.”
I didn’t aim be the reason/straw that broke the camel’s back and cause her to leave the SMDB but staying or leaving is her choice, as is choosing the words she uses.
I don’t agree with many of the characterizations that have been made of TL as a person or the imputed reasoning of her word choice, just as I haven’t cared for some of the thoughts or qualities that have been imputed to me.
For fuck’s sake.
When people tried to hand me pamphlets in NY which told me about how I was a sinner destined for hell, it was for my “crime” of walking down the street? When people were rude, obnoxious, or in-my-face, it was something that I wasn’t just expected to shrug off, or even consider obnoxious but still go on about my day, but cruelly was forced to endure?
Come on. We’re talking about words here. Just words. And not even words designed to defame and harm, like slander or libel, or those designed to threaten and frighten, but “hey baby, you’re hot!” They’re “subjected” to leers that they then must “endure”?
The horror, the horror.
If we don’t hold the line on leering, why, men may start staring, and if that goes by without sufficient outrage, there may be prolonged gazing!
I guess when I had a woman whistle at me way back in college, or girls try to chat me up, or flirt with me, or (gasp!) pick me up for sex, I was victimized.
Not knowing how to properly respond (with outrage), I just went on with my day if I chose not to take them up on their offers. Looking back, with what I’ve been taught here, I’m not sure how I found the strength to endure it.
Why, if women did that more often to me, it totally would have crushed my spirit, what with all the objectification and what not. Why, that woman in London who tried to pick me up by telling me that my clothes showed a high degree of style was only interested in me for my body. Oh my god, I was only a piece of meat to her! She didn’t even ask me what my thoughts were on the early Transcendental poets! I feel so dirty.
Come now. Don’t confuse “women who are vocal about their opinions on the issue” or “some women” or even “Dopers who are women” with “women”.
Some women have different tastes. Some women find it charming/roguish/pleasantly dangerous/wtf ever, to be flirted with in a way that other women would find obnoxious. I already related the story of how a guy I know met a woman, flirted with her by telling her (within 60 seconds of meeting her) that she had great cleavage, and they’re still dating to this day.
It takes all kinds. Don’t pretend that your attitude is some great salve for Womankind everywhere.