Private Barry Winchell, boyfriend of trans female Calpernia Addams. Beaten to death by two fellow soldiers who found out who he was dating.
I wonder about cases like this. You have a transgendered person. Fine. You have a transgendered person who wants to fit into and date in an Orthodox Jewish community…this is one of those cases where he can’t have both. The community is under no obligation to accept him, particularly as a potential spouse. I think regardless of what she does (his date), he has unrealistic expectations. How many women can you date in the apparently insular Orthodox Jewish community and not have everyone know? My understanding is that Orthodox Jews date like Mormon’s date - to find a spouse with whom they can have children.
It would be nice if the Orthodox Jewish community were more accepting and less conservative, but then they’d be Reform.
I suppose I should speak to this, since a portion of my job is to find the identities of the seemingly unfindable through the internet. Latest coup: given a woman’s first name and age, her husband’s first name, an extremely vague suggestion of where they lived–i.e. “in one of these four counties”–and her nickname, found them.
Now the above makes it seem easy to find people out. Actually, it isn’t. Take away even one of the five clues I mentioned above, and I would have struck out. There are too many people named X aged Y in those four counties, so removing the husband’s name would have stopped me. If I didn’t know they lived in that area, obviously I’m sunk. And the nickname was critical in this case. It let me confirm (through a webpage that the couple set up) that the couple I thought was the right one was indeed the one I was looking for. I’ve always said that it’s either dead easy or completely impossible to find someone, and that recent exercise proved that.
So what does this mean in the OP’s situation? You’re obviously going to find out more about a person during a date than you would in a very casual conversation. They might talk about their parents or the high school they went to or organizations they belong to, or some other innocuous fact that throws everything wide open. But more importantly, you’re going to remember it. Someone mentions that at a party, and you’ll probably forget it. On a date, you’ll remember things about the other person. That’s what a first date is, “a job interview with the possibility of being naked at the end of it” (copyright Jerry Seinfeld). Those little bits and pieces about someone you pick up on a date that you remember might well be the key to someone’s identity on the net, just like the nickname that I was passed earlier.
I suppose the difference is I have to (by law) use my powers for good, or at least the good of my employer, but other people are under no such obligation. But just because you can do something doesn’t mean you should, and that being said I agree with those here who say the woman involved should keep quiet about it.
After thinking about this for the last 24 hours, you’re right (insofar as your quoted question seems to imply some basis of biased thinking on my part). I don’t LIKE that you’re right, but you are. It’s not really my business whether a friend is inadvertently getting involved with a transgender person or not. And it shouldn’t matter. And this is how I feel about every other aspect of transgender/transsexual issues, that the person in question is the gender he or she feels he or she is.
But for some reason I still have a nagging feeling that in the case of dating and intimacy, they’re, essentially, not. And I hate that I have that nagging feeling, but there are actually physical challenges involved (moreso for FTM than MTF, but even MTF have them) that I feel require some disclosure before pants-shucking time. Well before.
Maybe it shouldn’t make a difference (and, in relation to my attitudes about tg/ts issues otherwise, I wish it didn’t), but it feels like it does. And I acknowledge that that may be bigoted. Like I said, I don’t like that I have that reaction.
Isn’t it my business if a friend is getting involved with a trans person? Like jayjay, I feel uncomfortable with myself knowing that it does matter, but the fact is, it does.
I don’t know. I mean, I wouldn’t say anything if it were a casual friend. I don’t really discuss dating with my close friends too much, but if I found out, say, their new partner was married, I’d tell them. Same for trans.
Ugh. It’s a terribly complicated situation all around.
This, a thousand times. Nobody has a right to know the contents of someone else’s knickers. That’s even before getting into the very real possibility that “outing” a trans person might lead to very unpleasant consequences for them and their loved ones–up to and including getting them killed.
It’s still deception, as the purpose of not telling is generally not because it doesn’t come up, or the person doesn’t think it will matter. The purpose is to let the other person think they are not trans.
Just like it’s still deception if I don’t mention I’m fat on a dating website. It’s something potentially important to the other person, and my purpose for leaving it out is because I know that it may be important. But it’s worse in this instance, since at least people online have at least some expectation that they may not have all the information.
Just because they are being more honest than they ever have been doesn’t mean there isn’t at least some deception going on. It’s not just withholding important information, but trying to deceive the other person into believing the opposite. And of course that is counterproductive.
No, it’s not. I actually do understand your discomfort, but if your friend is comfortable with the relationship, it’s really not your business.
Now, if they’re not comfortable with it and they need to talk about it…that I don’t know. That’s up to them, I suppose. But that’s someone in the relationship reaching out to a trusted one. Someone intruding on the relationship without permission, trusted or not, is crossing a line.
Depending on how far along a relationship is, it can be deception. I see transitioning as a major event in one’s sexual history, and when other events of similar magnitude come up, that one should as well. Many others have been shellshocked by finding out that their SO had a child, or an abortion, or an STD. Or if you want to get into Big Life Events, has been married before, been to jail, whatever.
I do think cis-gendered people (myself included) tend to react more strongly to it, however. A lot of our identity is included in our gender, and changing the physical part of that is seen as a Really Big Deal, and a lot to process when one finds out.
I think it is a deception. You may identify as male, but the truth of the matter is that most people are going to qualify that as “male who used to be female.” There are only a few people who are going to be able to do the mental switch completely - and it matters to most people - especially people who are dating for the sole purpose of finding a spouse and having a family - which is generally the case in the orthodox jewish community. In a Unitarian Church or another liberal community there is an awareness.
To me this is no different than finding out the person you are dating has crushing debt, major health issues, a child from a previous marriage, or is married - but in an open relationship. It isn’t something that EVERYONE needs to know, but you need to disclose it to someone you are dating pretty quickly and let them decide to accept it. And if you don’t, the person who you were dating has a right to feel deceived, and to warn other people that if “married” is a non-starter, this guy is a waste of your time.
At what point does a cismale born with a microphallus become required to share this information with someone he is dating? When does it become “deception”?
I completely agree with each point. I think the first one is obvious. There’s plenty of other similar things where it’s just not the business of the public, and this is one of those things. I can understand some people being upset with 2 and 3, but I don’t think they’re really thinking through why they’re good points.
With point number 2, for instance, it’s probably a pretty big deal to someone if they find out they’re dating someone who is TG. If it’s not an immediate deal breaker, maybe they need to work out what their feelings are. Why should they be expected not to talk to someone about it? And telling your friends isn’t tantamount to telling the community because your friends have no need to discuss it with anyone else. Why would someone have a need to talk about a friend of theirs dating someone that is TG other than for gossip? And eventually, as a relationship develops, it is probably something that close people are either going to need or want to know, but at least that aspect is delayed considerably until after a relationship has formed.
As for point number 3, I really don’t get the outrage. Someone being TG can absolutely be a dealbreaker and not because someone thinks they’re somehow gross or subhuman. For instance, if one wants to have kids, that just isn’t possible. In my mind, it’s on the exact same level like having an STD or some other serious condition, having kids, major differences in religious beliefs, etc. Yes, there will be some people who turn them down solely because of prejudice or whatever, but if that’s the case, is that someone that a TG person would even want a relationship with?
I’m not saying someone needs to immediately come out and say it. If you meet someone briefly and don’t chat a whole lot before getting together for a first date, then it’s something that should probably be mentioned during or shortly afterward, certainly before any sort of sexual contact occurs. If its someone met online, it should probably be mentioned even before a first date. Why would you hide a dealbreaker? Sure, if it’s too soon you might scare someone off, but from the other end, I’d feel a lot worse if I’d invested a fair amount of time and energy, developed some base emotional attachment, just to find out that someone is TG, or has AIDS or fits some other major potential deal breaker. I’d feel led on and lied to, especially since it would probably be implicitly clear before that point that it would be that way for me.
You have to be realistic and responsible. For a date or two with no physical contact, fine the TG person doesn’t have to tell. But once you move on to the physical level you need to inform someone of your history.
I wonder would that person lie if asked outright - are you really a male/female? Is that something we should start asking. I consider it part of dating. For instance, some people don’t want to marry or date outside their religion. I think that is fine, if that is what you feel.
Certainly you can talk about it with your friends. This is just gonna come up. I am a gay male and if say to someone, “I am gay,” I wouldn’t expect them to keep it secret from their friends. Yelling it from the top of the Willis Tower is another thing. Of course that high up who’d hear you 
AFAIK observant Orthodox Jews don’t have any physical contact on dates beyond hand holding (& probally not even that). Also the dates are usually at social events arranged by the synagogue or with a chaperone; an unmarried couple isn’t supposed to ever be alone.
Which is why, in this case, it is the community’s business. This isn’t “dating” as most of us tend to know it, where pants shucking time happens after a few dates and if three months later you break up, there might be tears and accusations, but that is to be expected.
This is a job interview for marriage which is a concern of the entire community.
This is just an inappropriate community for someone transsexual/transgendered to date in without disclosing it himself to the rabbi.
Are you saying that all these marriage proposals need to get the rabbi’s blessing? You say that the transgendered person should disclose it to the rabbi. If so, then it is sufficient that one person knows, namely the rabbi. It’s not necessary to publicize this to the whole community.
But he didn’t tell her “I’m trans” she found it out by going internet sleuthing. Would he have told her, if their relationship was getting more serious? We don’t know, he was pre-empted. There’s absolutely no way to know.
More to the point, I said it once, I’ll say it again. Being known, being outed, even being suspected as tran has caused people to be murdered. Keeping your kvetchy mouth shut about someone else’s business that is clearly both highly contentious and vastly personal has never caused anyone to be murdered. The obvious moral course of action is to do the thing which doesn’t put anyone at risk of harm. You do not out people as trans, to anyone, without permission, ever.
And then dissemination beyond that is the rabbi’s call. He leads the community, right? I’m not Jewish, but I would think that would be the proper thing to do under these particular services.
Yes, I think a Orthodox Jewish Wedding needs the rabbi’s blessing. That blessing is sort of the point of the wedding, isn’t it?
When some woman unknowingly marries him (because orthodox Jews don’t date without the intention to marry, generally, and they don’t have premarital sex, and typically, cannot be alone together before marriage), and she requests a divorce before the Bet Din (rabinnical court) with the grounds that he fraudulently induced her to marry him on account of the fact that he lacks a penis and cannot father children, the reason for the divorce will become a matter of public record anyway.
If he cannot see that this is almost an inevitability if he continues to hide his status from prospective mates, he’s very much a fool.
That said I do not think anyone has the right to broadcast his status. I do think that the Rabbi should know, and that should be kept in confidence until such time as a person is considering marriage without knowledge of his status.
Despite my hardline stance in the thread, I do think that, in this case, the man should have been aware of the difficulties he faced with that community. It’s his responsibility to make sure this kind of thing doesn’t happen in the first place. Love is love, but that’s not enough to avoid consequences. Either face them or don’t make the choice that brings them about.