It could be that the best way to help this child is to help the parent. Even the best parents have really bad days. Being really poor doesn’t help (you mentioned that the mom had said something about $10.) Though I agree that calling your child “fucking stupid” is a huge no-no. That said, I’ve seen one of the most devoted mothers I’ve ever known say exactly that to one of her sons on a really bad day.
As for crying outside, kids cry. My 2 year old has huge fits outside all the time. Mostly because I won’t let him do something, like run out into the street. He throws himself on the ground and bangs his head like he’s trying to bust it open. If I pick him up, he just attacks me instead. The doctor said to ignore these fits and they will eventually stop, but until then I get to suffer the stares of passers-by trying to figure out exactly how I’m abusing my kid.
This kid isn’t throwing tantrums. He’s sitting by himself crying. Also, he is probably 6 or 7.
I called CPS and they said they can’t do anything without more proof. They can’t go on maybe’s. So I think I’ll be keeping my eyes and ears open to see what happens.
I had a horrible experience in reporting child abuse.
I was living in an apartment with two roomates. Through the walls we could hear a child screaming in pain in the apartment next door. This was not “play” screaming, but screams of agony and fear (you can definitly tell the difference). One of my roomates went downstairs and called the police.
The cop arrived less than twenty minutes later. We heard him knocking, and listened to see what would happen. To our horror, he said in a rolling-eyes voice, “Your next-door neighbor just called and said you were beatin’ your kid. You beatin’ any kids?”
“No,” said a female voice. The officer then said, “Okay, sorry to bother you.”
The retribution we faced from that call was pretty bad. I’m still glad we called, because I think it scared her a little. We never heard screams again.
I say to keep an eye and ear out, call the school if possible, ask your neighbors—this boy seems to need advocates. I wouldn’t say anything more directly to the mother lest she take it out on the boy.
FWIW, there are plenty of steps before removing a child—counseling, family-based advocacy, respite care if the mom is overwhelmed and just needs a few hours for herself. Social Services (or whatever your state/country calls it) often get a bad rap, but they CAN provide a lot of help while keeping the child in the home.
indygrrl, I did report a woman in the next apartment to CPS under similar circumstances. Basically, over several weeks, I heard her yell at her children for at least 10 continuous minutes on several occaisions, not only swearing at them, but telling them they were worthless, failures, useless, etc. Since I didn’t have a phone at the time, I called from my nextdoor neighbor’s who agreed with what I was doing. When I called CPS, they said they’d already received a complaint from someone in her building on behalf of 30 other people in the building. A few minutes after the call, the woman I called CPS about also yelled, “Whoever called the cops(?) on me, come on out here so I can beat the snot out of you!” Needless to say, my neighbor and I agreed I wasn’t that stupid.
I was a victim of emotional abuse as a child. For years I believed I was useless, stupid, unlovable, ugly, and a waste. It was that refrain I was fighting when I was laid off last summer, and that refrain which has been playing in my head when I’ve come close to committing suicide. I’ve managed to heal a lot of the damage, thanks to good help, and I’ve come to terms with what my parents did and why. I mean it when I say I love them. That doesn’t change the wrongness of what they did. For me, one of the worst things about emotional abuse is it didn’t leave physical scars, so I wondered if I was exaggerating what was done to me, if it was all my imagination.
I would report this, but I’ve little to lose and am not afraid to lose it. I trust you to do the right thing.
When someone gets reported, that doesn’t necessarily mean the kid is going to get into a better environment. They might put them into a foster home where the people scream at them.
When CPS was called on my friend, they told her they needed to do an ‘Evaluation’ & that cost her $900.00 For this, someone comes over, takes a look at the environment --is it clean & organized & writes a report. Boring, but adds another reason to scream.
Of course, if you saw me as a kid it wouldn’t surprise you that they screamed at me too. I could have been a better child.
Kids cry. Kids cry when they fall down. Kids cry when their parents yell at them. Kids cry when they’re told to go outside. Kids cry when they’re told to come inside. Kids cry when they’re bored. Kids cry when they’re tired. Kids cry when some one else is playing with their toy. Kids cry when some one else doesn’t want to play with their toy.
The point? A kid crying outside is NOT, in and of itself, any indication of abuse.
**
Say what? Surely you have some other reason for imagining she physically abuses him, other than their size difference and seeing him cry ‘a few different times’? Maybe you’re not telling us the whole story, but this entire paragraph made me question your reasoning. A kid has cried a few times and you ‘imagine’ that she physically abuses him.
IMHO, it’s far too easy to imagine people are angry, hate-filled, and abusive. Particularly on the basis of one memorable occasion and a few half-remembered and possibly unrelated incidents.
If you were to do anything, I’d say you should calmly observe the two of them over a longer period of time than one shouting match, ‘a few’ memories of the kid crying (for reasons unknown), and your imagination that she phsyically abuses him.
If, after a couple of months of careful observation, you still feel there’s a reason to call, then maybe you should. As it stands, it does not appear that you have a good reason for invoking CPS. Those investigations are extremely disruptive and damaging - unless you have a damn good reason (and, in case I didn’t make it clear, I don’t think you do), I don’t suggest you call them.
I, too, think that this situtation needs to be monitored. Also, if/when you observe the mother behaving in this manner, try to be on her side, rather than confrontational. I’m sure this will probably be difficult, as she does not sound like the most savory person, but it may be the best tactic with someone like her. I believe someone mentioned offering to babysit in a previous post. You also mentioned that you were afraid this parent would report you to the authorities if you reported her, so I’m guessing that you are a parent, too. Maybe you could invite her son over for a play date (if your children are close enough in age). This would give her a break, and also allow you to observe the child in question - perhaps it could give you some insight as to what may happen behind closed doors (does he flinch easily? does he seem especially hungry? are his clothes clean? you get the idea…). You sound like a very caring and intelligent person, and I am proud of you for being concerned. However, as has also been previously mentioned in other posts, it just doesn’t seem like you have enough information to provide to the authorities at this point. Maybe all this “family” needs is a helping hand from someone like yourself. At least you care and are willing to do something. That’s a lot more than most people would do in your situation. Good luck to all of you.
As someone who investigates child abuse, and as one who has been called too late , I recommend that you report what you’ve seen. You can probably do so anonymously, so that you don’t have to worry about retribution.
I know that you don’t have a lot of information at this point, but waiting could be dangerous. You are not trained, equipped nor legally authorized to do an investigation into this family. Leave that to those who are paid to do it.
I know that the police and CPS don’t always do the right things, and mistakes get made. It would be terrible if they were to mess up this family for no reason, but wouldn’t it be worse if something truly tragic happens and no one did any thing?
And my experience has been that CPS focuses on providing services and counselling to parents who need it, rather than ripping families apart at the slightest provocation. This may be just what this family needs.
Please, call CPS and make the report. I really believe that it is the best thing to do.
So instead of having possible trauma and monitoring the situation you’d rather have actual trauma? Calling in CPS could be dangerous.
Precisely what qualifications does one need to keep an eye on a childs behavior? It happens every day by people whos only qualification was that they had sex. No one has suggested she ‘investigate’ this family, merely observe their behavior over a longer period of time than a 90 second shouting spree before coming to the conclusion that an investigation needs to take place.
Indy is 100% qualified to collect more information before going off half-cocked. She’s alive and capable of critical thought.
**
Correct me if I’m wrong, but your decision is based on fear and what you imagine is happening to that child because of a few lines of text you read on a message board. What information do you have to invoke an extremely traumatic, disruptive, intrusive investigation?
**
No. They are equally tragic.
**
And then again, it may not be.
In my experience, parents end up yelling at their children, occasionally crossing the line in what’s appropriate, and feeling like total asses later. It’s part of life. A pattern of this behavior may be abuse. What facts do I have to back that up? None - I have my own biases.
My opinion is the liklihood that a CPS investigation will mess up the family is equal to the liklihood that the child is in an abusive environment. The liklihood that this child an his mother are a happy loving family is greater than both. Calling in CPS now is going off half-cocked and irresponsible.
I did call CPS and they told me that they couldn’t investigate anything unless I had more substantial allegations.
I haven’t seen the kid or the mom since Sunday, so I don’t know what’s going on.
Beezlebubba–you might not understand what I’m saying. I know that kids cry all the time. This crying has been different. We’re talking about him sitting on the sidewalk, all worked up–once in the middle of winter after dark. Of course, I could be wrong, but after the incident the other day, I don’t think I am.
The reason I’m worried about the mom abusing him is because I saw her face when she yelled at him. I heard the tone of her voice and it scared me. She yelled at him with hatred. I would think anyone who yells at a little kid like that is capable of abuse.
You’d be an angel of mercy to that child if you befriended him and made nice with his parents. The best “rehabilitation” I got when little was a non-judgemental teacher who asked questions and listened. She only did it once on a playground, but it was enough. She took no other action except inviting me and my sis to her and her daughter’s house at times and just smiling with us. Kids don’t want to hear bad things about their parents. They want to know that things can be normal and that if something bad were to happen, they have someone caring besides their parents to go to - even if it’s just for talking - especially if it’s just for talking (it’s powerful medicine).
Another thing, from my personal experience only, the sex offenders are the most charismatic and gentle people you’d ever meet. They don’t get their way by yelling at the child. Which means they have few outward warning signs in their behavior like yelling in the street. The only way you’ll hear about their crimes is talking to children and making yourself available so they’ll talk to you. IMO, this is a good technique to use for any type of abuse. (And if CPS wants more evidence, I’m guessing an admission by the child would do the trick.)
I think it’s great you care. You might think you’re powerless without CPS, but you can do a lot just by being there for the kid.
Some parents curse at their kids to get their attention and to make the point that you are really unhappy with them without having to resort to corporal punishment. Also remember that parents are human and sometimes words get said that shouldn’t be said in the presence of children. I never actually cursed AT my stepdaughter (though my wife did from time to time) but sometimes I cursed in response to things she would do. Sometimes kids will do one thing after another that pisses you off, even after you have told them to stop, and it’s hard for a person who normally curses quite a bit to bite their tongue all the time, so ‘Stop opening and closing that fucking door!’ has crossed my lips from time to time. Never called the child stupid, but sometimes I did say that about her actions. There was plenty of love in the household (even after her mother essentially moved out my mother and I continued to take care of the child for several weeks), and the kid wasn’t abused, but if someone caught us at the wrong time they might see something not unlike what the OP described.
I applaud your decision to call CPS. I’m of the opinion that when one suspects abuse, calling in the proper authorities is always the best way to go. I have reported suspected abuse before, and I’ll continue to do so in the future. I don’t have 100% faith in the CPS (or foster care)–they do make mistakes, sure, but it’s always better safe than sorry. It’s been my experience that CPS is usually cautious. I’ve never known them to just swoop down and take kids from homes based on a single report without substantial evidence. From my experience, usually the parent is just assigned a case worker who monitors the situation and recommends changes (such as parenting courses or safety issues that need to be resolved in the home), and parents are given time to either comply or ignore those recommendations. That’s been my experience with the local CPS anyway.
It’s worse, I think, to ignore a situation. Because you truly could be saving a child’s life by speaking up. I am speaking from personal experiences here, and of course, others may have had personal experiences that led them to the opposite opinion.
Befriending the mother is also another excellent suggestion. I did that once with a family that I had concerns about. I babysat for them, I played with their kids so they could have a break, I gave them parenting articles. (I didn’t say, “read this and learn something”, but said, “hey, this article has a lot of great ideas and I got a lot out of it and thought I’d pass it along!”) Perhaps the parent is experiencing a lot of stress and just needs a little help to get throug a rough spot… or perhaps they just don’t know a better way to parent. Show them, and support them. With some people, it just won’t make a difference, but perhaps it will.
**
It’s a matter of what the relative “trauma” may be. If the child is being physically or emotionally abused, or if the mother is in need of help and services, I think it is best to get involved right away.
I have investigated many of these reports, with and without CPS assistance. The “trauma” to the family of our investigation is almost always minimal, unless something is actually wrong and further action is justified. Having CPS come to the door and ask a few questions and speak to the child is not going to destroy anyone’s life.
OK, I’m correcting you because you’re wrong. My suggestion is based on a great deal of real-life experience, dealing with both valid and invalid complaints. I’ve learned to trust (to a certain extent) the instincts of most people. If what Indygrrl saw was enough to upset her, then I’m guessing it was more than just normal parental behavior. I would rather err on the side of caution and the child’s safety.
Beelzebubba, have you had some personal experience with an “extremely traumatic, distruptive, intrusive investigation” by CPS? If so, I’m sorry to hear it. I know that sometimes CPS investigations can get out of control. However, I know that to be the exception rather than the rule (by a huge margin), and I don’t think it justifies risking some harm to this child while we wait for something more significant to happen.
The simple fact is, I’ve seen far too many tragedies (in domestic violence, child abuse, and swimmers caught in a rip current) because someone decided to wait too long to make a call.
I’m glad that you called. Even if they don’t do anything now, the information is in their computers if they have any further calls about the same person. You did the right thing, and I hope it helps you rest easy.
It’s a difficult call in real terms and it’'s sometimes a slippery slope where valid parental discipline ends and abuse begins. Before I had children I probably would have tempted to intervene or drop a dime in a scenario where a parent was verbally lambasting a kidy, but then I had children and my take on it changed somewhat.
As a real life example my 16 daughter is fairly bright, but she is relatively indifferent to how her behavior and irresponsibility impacts other people. In trying to be a good dad I have pretty much given her carte blanche to call me if she needs to stay after school or be picked up from school (even is she is with her mother that week) and I will leave work to pick her up. The only thing I ask is if she specifys a time and place, that she please be there and not make me wait too long. Over the past year until a few months ago I would come to the front as 10 minutes or so past 3PM and all the other children waiting to be picked up would be streaming into their parents cars while I waited 5-10-15-20 minutes or longer for her to emerge from the school.
This happened time, and time, and time and time again and it was always that she needed to talk to Mrs. X or Y or whatever. It was always something, and despite my entreaties to be on time it did not stop. My time and her mother’s time (she did this with her as well) were completely and utterly unimportant to her.
For after school activities it was even worse as I would have to play “guess the entrance I want you to pick me up at”. She would never be near the door looking for the car. Half the time I would have to go in and find her in the school. I gave her a cell phone and I paid for a plan for her to call me. She would leave it at home half the time, and if she did use it to call me and leave a message she would then promptly turn it off so I could not call her back to see where she was if I was waiting. 5:00 pickup times after Drama Club became one hours waits in the parking lot outside without even the courtesy of a phone call to tell me the rehearsal was going long because “she forgot”.
Anyway after umpteenth time of cooling my heels in these scenarios, when she finally got in the car one evening I lost my temper and I just went off. You could probably have heard me in the next county. Re the OP if someone walked onto the scene at that moment with her cowering in the back seat and me bellowing at her like a rabid grizzly, they might well conclude that she was an abused child instead of one of the more spoiled princesses on the Eastern Shore.
Now if someone is striking a child IMO that takes it to anoher level, but as far as yelling goes I tend to give the parent the benefit of the doubt at this stage in my life.
, I recommend that you report what you’ve seen. You can probably do so anonymously, so that you don’t have to worry about retribution.
