I don’t think this thread is about the injustices inflicted upon the Black populace. The question is whether Blacks should be paid monetary reparations for having been slaves.
My ancestors never owned slaves. Some of them fought on the side of the Republic in the Civil War. Many, many people fought for the North during that war. They have paid with their blood to end slavery. So having paid with their blood and lives, their ancestors are now expected to pay for the thing they fought against? Will the United States pay reparations to the ancestors of those who fought and/or died to end slavery?
IMO, politcal leaders try to inflame the public so as to maintain their positions of power. Anti-gun politicians do it by attacking the Second Amendment. Anti-abortion politicians do it by talking about the murder of poor, innocent human lives. Black politicians do it by bringing up slavery and demanding payment for it, which is sure to stir hateful emotions on each side. “A house divided cannot stand.” If we want to unite the so-called “races” (yes, I’m one of those lunatics that believe that humans are humans) we must stop being divisive.
I can understand why some folks want reparations for decendants of slaves, since reparations were given in the 1980s to Japanese-Americans who were rounded up and put into U.S. concentration camps during WWII (the most famous of these survivors is George Tekai, aka Sulu from the original Star Trek series - he talks about this in his autobograpgy, “To The Stars”). BTW, has anyone noticed there were no such camps (to my knowledge) for German- or Italian-Americans? Discuss…
Here are the problems w/reps for slavery:
Many of the folks who were in the WWII camps were still alive when $$$ was handed out. Although one could certainly argue that the long-dead institution of slavery has had a negative effect on black people today, a devil’s advocate could also argue that its not the same as being directly effected by slavery or having been a slave, and therefore reps this many years later would be pointless.
The financial reparations for the WWII camps surviors, IIRC, was based on an average of how much $$$ and property wre lost to whole families due to relocation. How do you put a pricetag on one’s freedom, or rather one’s ancestor’s freedom?
Reparation is a good idea, but in this case its an idea that’s probably 100 years too late - sorta like putting a Band-Aid on a badly healed bone break.
Although racism would certainly still exist had there not been slavery in this country, I’m sure slavery’s after effects (various anti-voting laws for blacks, the like) wouldn’t have existed or at least wouldn’t have been so harsh if an entire race hadn’t been seen and treated as PROPERTY, as less-than-human by a race and government.
I’m a firm belier that if the Dred Scott decision had gone the other way (see http://www.tourolaw.edu/patch/Scott/index.html ), slavery would have been chipped away at and race relations - at least, black/white relations - wouldn’t have been as strained. It would be naive of us to think that a dehumanizing institution supported by the courts and government did NOT have a huge impact on later generations.
pkbites: “As far as the problems that blacks face today, those are things that need to be delt with. But how can we effectively deal with them if we also have to deal with something that is over a century old? I say stop picking at the scab of the long ago past and let’s deal with the present. Current racism would exist even if slavery never did. Let’s deal with it as a current problem.”
Reading this it becomes clear that you mainly disagree with the idea of reparations for slavery–as I’m sure many African-Americans do. It is one thing to say that racism today is more about skin color and socio-economic difference than it is about the historical practice through which those differences were institutionalized more than a century ago. That, at any rate, is one kind of debate.
But in your OP you lapse into something else entirely when you ask “when will blacks let go of the past.” There it is you who is being divisive by making skin color the basis of a race-wide forgetting that you deem necessary.
I agree with Sterra that the idea of reparations gets as much attention as it does precisely because it raises hackles. Speaking for myself, I’d rather see more coverage of how large numbers of African-American voters in Florida and elsewhere were systematically disenfranchised in the last election. So I guess I agree with you pk about the importance of dealing with present-day problems.
But I hope you’ll agree with me that it makes no sense, on the one hand, to attack identity politics and to appeal to a transcendent “United States” identity, while, on the other hand, to single out blacks on the basis of their skin color as those who must let go of their past.
I don’t doubt that some members of the Army of the Republic fought for the ideal of ending slavery. And, there existed a very vocal minority both in the North AND South who did rail against slavery and call repeatedly for it to end. Some of these people risked and lost their lives long before the war began. Those worthy people well and truly embraced an ideal and lived (and died) with the courage of their convictions.
But, I have said this before and I will say it again: Most people, in the North AND South had no interest whatever in slavery. The majority of the Northern population did not rail against slavery, did not call for it to be ended and did not put their lives on the line for that cause. The same was true in the South–the majority of the Southern population did not own slaves and never expected to. They, too, did not rail against it and did not call for an end to it. The majority of the population simply did not care, one way or the other. Of course, by not railing against the institution, they gave it their tacit approval, but that was true of both sides.
If the Northern population was composed entirely of patriots who detested slavery, why was it necessary for the Union to impose a draft in order to secure manpower? Why did several Northern cities experience violent riots in opposition to that draft? Why was it legal for people who could afford it to be able to buy their way out of the draft? Something like 100,000 Union citizens availed themselves of that privilege. I think buying one’s way out and/or rioting against the draft were not the actions of people who were willing to die for the end of slavery.
Um, pkbites, I think that Americans will not make progress in dealing with the problems of racism that we face NOW if we do not understand the history of race relations that began with slavery evolved into Jim Crow segregation and now is manifested in things like racial profiling. I find your statement that blacks need to “let go of the past” to be exceedingly problematic. You don’t hear too many people telling Jewish folks to forget about the Holocaust. Their point in remembering that awful time is to make sure that it does not happen again. If we forget about or dismiss history, then we place ourselves in danger of repeating the same mistakes.
As far as reparations, I don’t believe that whites can put a price on the atrocities committed to peoples of African descent for the past 400 years, nor should they. Giving money to blacks right now would just be an easy way of forgetting about the past. Sort of along the lines of “Here’s your money. Now I’m absolved of any responsibility for the past.” The best kind of reparations that ALL Americans right now can pay to black people is to educate themselves about the history of race relations in America, try to understand how that history has created the world we live in now, and attempt to move past any preconceived, arbitrary notions of race as a biological determinant of intelligence or superiority. Right now not much if any of the history of race relations is taught in school. I had to wait until I got to college to even have the option to take a class that covered black history or American Indian history in any kind of comprehensive way. This is a shame. What American citizens can do is lobby their local school boards, PTAs, Congressional representatives, whatever to revise this part of the school curriculum for children now. For those folks who are out of school, work to educate yourselves on ALL ASPECTS of American history. There’re plenty of books out there that deal with the subject, and I bet there is more history yet to be discovered.
As many others have said, the time for them to let the past go, is when the past has actually left us. Racism is alive and well, it’s just been sugar coated a bit.
Considering that one definition of a slave is “One who is abjectly subservient to a specified person or influence”, you could reasonably argue that slavery didn’t end 135 years ago. Blacks have been treated like second class citizens for the majority of their history in this country. They are still treated as such by some.
As another example of letting the past go, how about this little fictional conversation:
Billy Bob: You know Elmer, I think them black folks should just let the past go. It doesn’t do anyone any good to dwell on what once was.
Elmer: Yeah, I hear you. By the way, can you believe them uppity folk are trying to tell us we can’t wave the confederate flag? Damn it, I’m proud of my ancestors and their achievements.
Should blacks receive restitution for slavery? No.
Here’s why:
No black person living today was a slave in America during the time of Abraham Lincoln. Every slaveowner is deceased. All United States government officials that allowed slavery to exist are dead.
Slavery at the time was legal. There is a law called an “ex-post-facto” law that prevents punishment for legal actions that happened yesterday that are considered crimes by law today.
The “50 acres and a mule” bill to compensate blacks for slavery was passed by congress but vetoed by the existing president. It was never a law. It was a failed bill.
My history professor, who is a black man, said, “African tribesmen are partially to blame for slavery…they sold their own people to the Europeans…where is the black mans’ responsibility regarding the Slave Trade?”
True, but beside the point. How much money would you have given to blacks back when they were alive? How much is one’s life actually worth?
True, but still beside the point. Guess we should have just let that whole holocaust thing go.
True, but we’re not talking about doing something because it’s “the law”, it’s about doing what’s “right.”
False. Can we blame all black people for Clarence Thomas?
The reason I agree with you on reparations is a simple one. We just can’t afford it. The GDP of the U.S. for the next 20 years wouldn’t be enough to compensate for what we did to the slaves.
I do think we can do something, even if it’s along the lines of college scholarships for all blacks who desire one. Even then, I don’t think we can say we’ve “washed our hands” of this whole affair, but it would certainly help to end the cycle of poverty that racism has helped prolong.
Originally posted by SuaSponte *
** When my black friends can’t get a cab to stop for them, [it’s due to racists.]*
Sua says the cab drivers who won’t stop are racists. Maybe so. But, maybe it’s a reaction to a high Black crime rate. My impressions is that cabbies of every race have these concerns. Of course, this situation is totally unfair to the large majority of Black people who are not criminals.
When my black friend was employed as a tester for a fair housing organization in Philly, and would be turned down for mortgages or rentals that a white colleague with the exact same credentials would be offered, [it’s racisim.]
I wonder whether the credentials were really “exactly the same.” I have read that Black borrowers default on their mortgages more than average. This statistic indicates that the lending institutions are requiring less credit-worthiness for Black borrowers than for White borrowers. If so, it’s probably due to pressure from people like Sua’s friend. Absent that pressure, things might be grim from Black borrowers…
I made one typo.
I realized that immediately, but I was not allowed to edit.
Focusing on that typo deflects from the real issue.
The idea is to address the points I presented.
Question: When will blacks [as a group] let the past go?
Answer: Never. It will never happen.
Here’s why:
The legacy of slavery is “The Sword of Damocles” that blacks can forever hold over whites in terms of making whites feel guilty and responsible for anything negative that affects them as a group…and at the same time making blacks feel morally superior to whites and entitled [to benefits through the government or through the law] while it offers to free blacks from personal responsibility for their present condition. It’s a way for a minority group to seize some power and try to influence and control the majority…even though the white people that blacks presently blame had no direct involvement in slavery.
So, the blacks intended to be enslaved, knowing and counting on the white guilt several hundred years later would reap them the benefits of… increased rates of incarceration, lower wages, higher stress levels etc. damn! what a plan@!