When will blacks let the past go?

Great Debates
41

OK. Here’s a source that says that Black and White default rates are equal. http://www.mugu.com/cgi-bin/Upstream/Issues/race/mortgage.html

Here’s a source that says, “In a report released this week in Washington, D.C. (Editors: October 28, 1997), NTIC found that the vast majority of the FHA’s 100-percent-guaranteed loans that go into foreclosure are originated by a handful of mortgage bankers in a small number of urban neighborhoods. These lenders have foreclosure rates that are 2 to 3 times higher than the regional foreclosure average for FHA loans, which itself is several times higher than conventional lender default rates.” http://www.thinkglink.com/cfc254.htm

This quote talks about high foreclosure rates in “urban neighborhoods.”

Here’s a source that says, “As reported in yesterday’s Wall Street Journal, a new study by authors who include two senior economists at the FRB, indicates that default data on a sample of FHA-insured mortgage loans originated between 1987 and 1989 showed that the default rate was approximately twice as high for black borrowers as it was for white borrowers.” http://www.ffhsj.com/fairlend/flarch/fl950127.htm

Here’s a source that says, “…a recent study by the Federal Reserve has disclosed just the opposite: Asians defaulted at a rate of 3.2 per cent, white Americans at a rate of 4.3 per cent, Hispanics hang in close at 5.1 per cent, and American Indians are next at 6 per cent. And bringing up the tail end position are black Americans at 9 per cent!”

Here’s another article referencing the Federal Reserve economicsts study. http://www.ncpa.org/pd/affirm/pdaa/pdaa32.html

“However if blacks were being widely discriminated against, then those who succeeded in getting mortgages should be less likely to default than whites. Yet the rate of default rates on home mortgage loans is higher for blacks than whites, according to an Urban Institute study by four Federal Reserve economists. They also found black-owned banks tend
to reject a higher number of loan applications than white-owned banks, suggesting factors other than race at work. Furthermore 95 percent of banks have programs to increase home mortgage lending to minorities, with the result that they attract a higher percentage of loan applicants who don’t qualify for financial reasons.”

42

It would be interesting to know if those studies were normalized for other factors.

What I mean is, I would predict that blacks and whites with the same incomes, credit ratings, etc., would default at equal rates.

Is my guess right? Or do those studies say that blacks and whites default at different rates, even when other factors are the same?

43

That’s terrible. Let me know when they start handing out restitution to women, who couldn’t vote for another 50 years after that.

44

German and Italian-Americans were sent to camps. See:
this

45

[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by december *
**

**

Urban neighborhoods do not mean black people. Urban neigborhoods means people who do not live in rural areas or suburbs.

**
And here’s a report that says that lending discrimination is not due to uncreditworthiness and that statistics are used to skewer perceptions.
http://www.hud.gov/library/bookshelf18/pressrel/newsconf/intro.html
FINDING #2. At later stages of the process, racial disparities in loan denial rates cannot be “explained away” by differences in creditworthiness or by technical factors affecting the analyses. Statistical re-analysis of data assembled by the Federal Reserve Bank of Boston (data that include measures of creditworthiness and other important factors) finds large differences in loan denial rates between minority and white applicants, and these differences cannot be explained away by data or statistical problems asserted by prior critics of the “Boston Fed” study. This analysis presents substantial evidence that discrimination exists, shifting the “burden of proof” to those who would argue that these differences are entirely due to racially neutral underwriting criteria.

**

http://www.chicagoreporter.com/1993/05-93/0593MortgageLendinginChicagoSeparateUnequal.htm
Here’s an article that says that banking practices are actually causing a high default rate in black neighborhoods.
Proponents say FHA loans are the only lifeline to minority neighborhoods that have been abandoned by conventional lenders. But local housing activists and bankers say the FHA has spurred a cycle of default, foreclosure and abandonment.

Here’s another study refering to how banking practices undermine black mortgage holders.
http://business.fullerton.edu/journal/pdf/vol11n01/v11p013.pdf
Utilizing FHA and Home Mortgage disclosure Act (HMDA) data, matched pair testing, and geographic analysis, this report reveals the insidious manner in which FHA programs are used to further community decline and perpetuate racial stereotypes. To document the patterns and practices of FHA lending, this study focuses on the housing market patterns in Cook and DuPage counties. This “study area” includes the City of Chicago and the most heavily populated suburban areas in the metropolitan region. The study demonstrates that the high levels of FHA lending, and accompanying high levels of default and foreclosure in minority and racially changing communities, are not the results of natural market forces, higher risks posed by minority home purchasers, or the result of the legitimate role FHA plays in serving lower-income markets. Rather, they are the result of racially discriminatory lending practices and irresponsible administrative practices which go unchecked.
Now, december, would you like to get back to this?

[quote]
. But, maybe it’s a reaction to a high Black crime rate.

46

I didn’t read the thread all the way through, so forgive me if I am repeating a previous poster’s position.

I’m somewhat conservative on most issues, but on this one, I hafta agree with what is generally a liberal position.

Blacks may have technically been “emancipated” from slavery since 1 January, 1863. It still took the combined might of the Union Army another two+ years to wrangle the Rebs into signing a surrender at Appomattox. This only ended their forced servitude to another human being.

Since then, they have suffered midnight rides, burning crosses and Jim Crow for another century before another war, cultural rather than military, brought their plight back to the forefront of the national conscience, and the Civil Rights Act tried to address the issues of inequality once again.

And yet still today, blacks are concentrated in the poorest of blighted urban areas. Everywhere they move, they meet resistance from every other race, because of the widely held belief that blacks drive down property values due to their inherent criminality or some other such nonsense.

The inner-city schools, which most blacks are relegated to, are overcrowded, underfunded and poorly staffed. Because of poor education, they have less opportunity than whites.

This inequality has led to the rage of gang violence, crime and hostility between races.

While disparity of education, opportunity and income are less than they were, there is still a signifigant gap between the races. The lame attempts by such notable luminaries as The Reverend Al Sharpton and Louis Farrakhan would piss me off severely if I were black. I’m white, and they piss me off. And Jesse Jackson is no Dr. King; not by half.

The half-measures of politiicians are woefully inadequate to requite the past and finally integrate blacks into society as true equals.

IMHO, white Americans owe black Americans absolutely nothing for 300 hundred years of forced servitude; it was a commonly and widely accepted practice, acknowledged by law and custom. And yes, it was, from our modern perspective, reprehensible.

We owe them for the last 135 years of cultural, political, professional, geographic and economic segregation from the rest of the country that they inherited by default at Appomattox.

47

Biggirl, I am uncomfortable debating you on this issue, because I’m on your side. Your cite and mine seem be be paradoxical. HUD finds evidence of discrimination against Black borrowers, yet Federal Reserve economists find that a higher default rate, whereas discrimination would be expected to produce a lower one.

One explanation for this apparent paradox might be a quote from the HUD article cited by Biggirl:

**Now, december, would you like to get back to this?

My point is to address how to best improve the situation for Blacks in America. If the biggest problem today is rampant racism, then a solution ought to be aimed in that direction. However, it is possible that other types of actions might be more productive. If opposing racism isn’t the best road to progress, then exaggerating the degree of racism may not be in anybody’s interest.

48

Women could go to the polls and vote. WHITE women.

Blacks didn’t get their voting rights effectively since 1965.

Or can you not read the entire post I put up about black voting rights?

49

just a couple of thoughts from someone who lives at ground zero . Sumter Co. Alabama,middle of plantation country.

I know that there were a lot of slaves on the eastern seaboard, but in the areas of Alabama, Louisiana,and Mississippi where the majority of the nations slaves were, these areas were not settled until the early 1800’s, with most towns established in the 1830’s. Slavery existed in these areas for approximately 40-50 years.
At the end of the Civil War many former slaves left the area, but for the ones who stayed,some of the plantations were broken up and the land was given to former slaves.I am sure that not everybody got land and some got more than others. There are still parcels of land here owned by blacks that dates back to those times. Over the years a good bit of the lands were sold. The usual reason was: Former slave has 200 acres, when he died he left it to his 4 children, now 4 people have 50 acres each. Multiply this out by several generations and what happened was everyones piece of land got smaller and smaller it becane not feasible to farm it. Some people moved away and they wanted to cash out and the land was sold.

50

When will blacks let the past go? Tough question for a white boy like me to answer.

I would say that when I’ve lived my life surrounded by statistics saying that people of * my* race are the ones most likely to be undereducated, unemployed or underemployed, poorly housed, incarcerated, murdered, etc.; when I drive through an inner-city slum and see mostly people of * my* race; when I see most of the successful businesses being run by someone of a * different* color; when I know that my ancestors even a generation or two back really * didn’t* have a choice about their poverty, and when I know that many people who are my color today don’t fully believe that they have any good choices–then I’ll be able to * start* answering the question.

I think that white people who think they understand how it is to be black in America are fooling themselves, and are doing so because it’s very uncomfortable to admit that they don’t have a clue what it’s like. The more I’ve studied and thought about it, the more I think it’s impossible to understand from the outside. I grew up poor, and I know about that. But I grew up poor and * white*. I’m pretty sure there’s a difference.

51

Using the term “redneck” shows that you are only selective in the derisive slurs you use against people, not that you don’t use them.

52

MrO…you made some very interesting points.
My statement to you is this: No matter how much restitution America decides to reimburse blacks for slavery, white America will never be forgiven for the past. The anger and resentment against whites goes so far back and is so deeply rooted that the racial divide will never fully heal. Ever.

My question to you is this: My whole family came to America from Europe in the early 1900’s…and we were poor. My family never owned slaves. Why do I have to pay for injustices against blacks that have not been caused by me or my family? Do I have to pay reparations just because I’m white?

53

mikeymichaels-

No, I don’t maintain that white folks have to pay black folks for past injustices. I just think a little humility is in order. In general, white people have had an easier path than black people. I’m aware that there are some exceptions. My father was a sharecropper’s son, just about as poor as it’s possible for a white person to be in America. My own childhood was not particularly priviledged. But the social stigma of being poor is not as great a burden as the social stigma of being poor and black.

Black Americans are doing okay, improving their lot in life and overcoming those historical setbacks. In some cases, this has happened at the expense of a white person–I was turned down when I applied to a prestigious PhD program, and the department chair admitted to me that it was partly because they needed more minorities and fewer white males. Although this hurt my career, when I think from a larger cultural and historical perspective, I think it was a good thing.

I don’t ask you to pay anyone for anything that you didn’t do. I just think that white people need to take a long, careful, painful look at their attitudes.

Resentment against whites will never die? Possibly true. I’m surprised that I don’t see more resentment against whites. When we read some history–not just mainstream high school textbooks, but other perspectives as well–we start to see the enormity of what was done to an entire race of human beings. The wasted potential is staggering, devastating. Reparation is not going to be as simple as paying off one generation.

54

I don’t understand this. Why would a widely accepted pratice, acknowleged by law and custom be less wrong? Whites did not suddenly change after the civil war and neither did blacks. Whites owe blacks nothing as a race because a persons race does not define who that person is. The individuals who discriminate are the ones who owe something to the individuals they discriminated against.

Why would blacks default less if they were being widely discriminated against? To me that would say that since they have such a hard time getting a loan naturally they are going to have just as hard a time keeping the loan. The discrimination does not suddenly vanish once they get the loan. Indeed if they work so hard getting a loan the white person who didn’t have to will have a much easier time keeping it because they had less work to do so naturally they would have an easier time keeping the loan.

55

He didn’t say it was “less wrong”, just that there’s really not any one party that can receive blame.

True. But prior to the Civil War, there were whites who had always considered slavery to be reprehensible. (And, yes, I understand that the CW was fought for more reasons than just “slavery”, despite what Apu may say :D).

My own opinions are that no monetary compensation should be given to individual black people, at least, not for slavery (which is what is popularly thrown about, ExTank). As for the past 135 years of discrimination… well… some may call me naive (and I’ll call them cynical right back, consarnit!), but I think that constant upward stride that we’ve been making for several decades is part of the restitution they deserve.

Lemme ask you this… what do you think the average black man would want more… a heap of money, or the security in knowing that his children, and their children, and their children, won’t have to face the hateful stares and harsh words from ignorant, prejudiced people?

56

I read your entire post. You stated that from 1870 to 1965 laws in southern states made it more difficult for blacks(male ones, until 1920, you didn’t say) to vote. However, if you check voting records by state, I’m sure you’ll find that many more black males voted from 1870 through 1920 than women of any color. Even one black male voting then would be 100% more than women. Not being allowed to vote seems a strange reason to pick of all of them for restitution, as they were not the only ones who had to wait to vote.

57

I meant to say "if they were widely discriminated against by lenders. The allegation is that lenders require Blacks to be more credit-worthy than Whites. The credit-worthy borrowers are the ones who default less, by definition.

58

Gosh, I have to go both ways on this one:
A: Reparations are a bad idea
B: Neither blacks nor whites should “let go of the past” (to quote the OP).

I’m opposed to paying out reparations for slavery for several reasons
A: There are no living slaves, or children of slaves, and only a few grandchildren of slaves possibly alive in nursing homes somewhere today. The institution of slavery and the wrongs done are beyond our power to repair.

B: It would exacerbate racial divisions instead of healing them.

C: The documentation problem would be a pain: how do you prove your ancestors were slaves, do mixed-race folks qualify, and so on.

At the same time, I think that we as a nation need to acknowledge the wrongs of slavery.

A: Congress should adopt a resolution of apology to the descendants of slaves. Since it would just be a blanket statement, people who need to hear the words would be satisfied.

B. The current efforts to erect a museum of African-American history, with emphasis on slavery, should be supported. As Americans, we owe it to not only our ancestors, but to our descendants, to acknowledge ALL of our history, not just the
bits we’re proud of.

C. Individually, we ought to do our best to see each other as people, and not as members of a racial category. We should also remember that White folks don’t hold the patent on bigotry. Black folks need to stop hating Koreans, Latinos need to embrace Black folks, and so on. We can’t change the past, but we can build a better, more egalitarian future.

As a descendant of slave owners (that’s right, Kniz, I’m a southerner born and bred, I’ve never even been to Michigan, so no more of your comments), I feel it my duty to acknowledge that my ancestors did wrong in their day, but I feel no individual culpability in 2001.

59

As a black man I have to say that just like the Jews in Europe, the black man will not and shall not forget the disprosa or the self proclaimed “black holocaust”. It is important to note that part of north african socitey is slave ownership for right or wrong. It is easy to see where the europeans got the bright idea of carrying on that scocital trait to exargerated purportions. Needless to say, it was a great success. The europeans got the workers they need to work the fields and it was cheap the basis of all “good” plantation money managemet of the day. By the time of the civil war the issue was this, the north looking at the injustice of slavery tried to slowly stop it’s spread and practice citing inhumanity of the whole rotten deal. The south protested due to the fact it said it could not compete ( and they were right by the way ) with industrlaized northern states due to it dependices on aquarian economics which depened on mass cheap labor to run. ( this will be the first time in the United States of this occuring, the second time was in Hawaii.) Faced with the eventual distruction of it’s way of life, the south decided to simply withdraw from the union sparking the civil war. You see it is very simple. The black man and woman today are still treated as inferior, base and oft not portrayed as unable to “fend” for one’s own self. These very notions float around in most of america today reguardless of race creed etc. I have myself seen this between black people themselves. It’s not about racism it’s society at large that is the blame for a lot of what people say, think, and do. I hate to say this we are all pawns of people we don’t even know, working jobs we hate to buy things we don’t really need. That is life. However, the black american’s strife stems from the a) the uprooting form our homeland(s) and b) a true lack of racial idendity.
Because black americans were uprooted often forciably or suddenly from our ancetrial homes, we as people do NOT and I repeat DO NOT have a clue even frome what part of africa we were from let alone our original family names. This not a gripe but a cold hard fact. I’m personaly lucky as I can trace my family history back to late 1790’s. Sadly most black americans cannot do the same as I have. It is most appaling that every other race in the world can do the same but for population of people that live in america. Equaly appaling is the fact that most black americans are not able to realize the main feeling of vitimization that they feel.
all because society’s presitant view world wide that the black man is worthless trash. Anyone who is told that he is trash will become the trash that other man has so many times over depicted about. The feeling of victimaization is a natural expression of a world climate which has only recently begun to admit that black man is at least somewhere in the realm equtitable status with most of the world today.

60

sorry about my bad spelling ! Secondly about the issue of restitution: Bad Idea big time. No one has personaly wronged me but m\my ancestors. why should I get what was originaly promissed to them? By ancestors I mean aleast 4-? generations ago. Restitution is silly and no one serious would even consider it.