It seems that most of you people who are being sensative towards the problems that blacks have are being very prejudiced towards the South, making yourselves hypocritical and basically making your argument look like a total joke. You imply that we are all redneck racists driving rusty 88’ Ford Silverados with Rebel Flags no the front (I live in Louisiana, and I only know of one person who fits this description, and I bet that most of you morons would assume that he’s white). You also bring up racism towards blacks as a reason that blacks don’t let go of the past, but maybe racism of blacks towards whites is a reason that some whites still display the confederate flag. I always see poor blacks on the news complaining that it’s the “white man”'s fault that they are living in the projects and that their son just got shot by a cop while they were commiting a crime. How is this not equally racist as saying that all blacks are stupid, lazy, and poor? Not to mention that a lot of people feel that the blacks haven’t had the time to recover since the days of slavery and that’s why they deserve reparations. Well it took my grandfather about 20 years to go from being dirt poor to living comfortably, and another 25 years to go from living comfortably to having about $1 million to his name. So why is racism/segragation/slavery blamed by so many as the reason that a large number of blacks are poor?
well, **BabaBooey ** welcome to the SDMB.
niceties out of the way -
One thing that the moderators in this forum are pretty strict about is personal insults. SO, basically, walking into some one else’s place and calling them ‘morons’,(in addition to being really incorrect here) won’t fly real well with them.
In addition, it would help if you actually expressed a cogent thought or two yourself, vs. kindly ‘splainin’ to all of us where we’ve gone wrong. (insert appropriate smiley here)
Hardly. And many were arrested for trying.
[Moderator Hat: ON]
BabaBooey said:
I bet that most people might consider finding out whether such insults are allowed in a particular forum before tossing them around like this.
Obviously, you aren’t most people. But I will tell you one thing – most people who don’t follow our rules get tossed out. The others repent and beg forgiveness. Which will you be?
David B, SDMB Great Debates Moderator
[Moderator Hat: OFF]
I’m sorry, it’s just that two things that really get my panties in a bunch are liberals and hypocrites, and there seems to be a lot of those around here. When I said “most of you morons”, I wasn’t refering to most everyone viewing this post, but most of the people who stereotype southerners. It seems that not only do a lot of blacks have problems letting go of the past, but so do a lot of northerners.
I suppose that means that the lenders just aren’t very good at judging who is credit worthy. If the lenders can’t even make their version of credit worty fit the definition then they must be doing something pretty wrong. I’ve always noticed that discrimination is more irrational than anything, and due to that fact its more likely that they simply looked at a black person and made judgements about them rather than thinking to themselves “they are black and black people default more so that should count against them” along with the other things.
Killjoy, as a black man you should hit the enter key more and add a few spaces in your text. It is otherwise quite hard to read.
mikeymichaels, I oppose reparations as unworkable, however this statement
will not get you any points in the discussion.
If your folks were part of the 1890-1920 wave of immigration, then they were used to “keep down” the blacks who had begun to move North looking for work. (If your ancestors were among the Italians who worked the Colorado mines, then their very presence was used to dissuade blacks from attempting to move to Colorado.)
I am not claiming that your ancestors had it easy. They did not. However, the poor Europeans who were encouraged to immigrate in that period were played off against the struggling American blacks for jobs and housing. And when layoffs came around as any industry suffered, the blacks who had seniority were layed off first, while your ancestors were kept on at starvation wages–but they then acquired the seniority that had been stripped from the blacks when times got better again. They allowed the factory owners and corporations to suppress the blacks–and were happy to accept the gains that they made by replacing the blacks.
That does not make them evil, just human. However, if reparations are debated from a moral position, your folks are as guilty as any good WASP with roots in the South in the 1830s (or the descendants of a 1790s New England shipowner who carried slaves).
I tried to read the whole thread, but its late and I kinda skimmed so forgive me if I repeat anything.
When will black let the past go? I hope they never do.
I’m a Jew boys and girls, and I’ll be damned if I EVER let anyone forget what happened at the hands of the Narzies (little Jewish joke there - nar is yiddish for fool or idiot)
However, reparations won’t change a damn thing. We don’t need reparations, we need an attitude adjustment. By making sweeping generalzations about blacks, segragation, etc, things just get worse. The idiots in Washington put them where they are, and its up to us to help them out.
And a side note, why does it seem blacks hate jews? I mean, here we are. Two of the most oppressed people on the face of the Earth and we’re fighting each other. Why don’t we get our shit together and work as a team? (sorry about the cliche, but I’m tired) I would think they’d hate the waspys more. Other than Whoopi who changed her name, how many black people do you do with a Jewish surname? I don’t have anything to back this up with, but I’m guessing the number of Jewish slave owners were few.
I gotta go to bed
Uh, doesn’t Chevy make the Silverado? And I didn’t think they made them in '88. Who built your truck, Johnny Cash?
Damnit, I’m an idiot. I hate Ford’s and love Silverado’s, so I just smacked myself pretty hard for that one. He drives an 88’ F150.
I suspect that “blacks hate jews” is a bit broad. As a Jew, would you like to answer for every opinion voiced by the late (and little lamented) Meir Kahane? Associating “black” opinions with those of Louis Farrakhan is equally too broad.
To the extent that some (as yet unidentified) group of blacks have negative feelings toward Jews as a class, I would guess that it has to do with the (unfortunately) normal propensity of humans to look for some group to look down on. The whole culture of “rednecks” and “poor white trash” has to do with the lowest group in the very class-stratiated society of the ante-bellum Southern U.S. finding among blacks a “class” that was lower than they–and then continuing those cultural views after the Emancipation, now morphing into the various white supremacists groups (drawn most heavily from among poor whites) who complain of the way that blacks are trying to be “equal” to whites. In Northen Ireland, the UDF and its related groups are most easily recruited from among the poorest Protestants who can then say “At least we aren’t papists.”
Throughout the 1950s and 1960s, Jews and blacks worked very closely for the same goals. Jews such as Harry Golden put their livelihoods (and lives) on the line arguing for civil rights. Blacks who “hate” Jews (and Jews who scorn blacks) are simply ignorant humans who have allowed current popular images to obscure their firmly intertwined historical associations.
Charlottesville Virginia, this year.
A woman from a poorer and well known African American section of town buys a TV on layaway from the local Wal-Mart. She is asked her address as part of the application. Her home street is well known as running through this particular section of town.
Later, when she gets home she happens to read her copy of the slip and sees that the salesperson has typed in “Nigga Avenue” in place of the name of her street. This at a Wal-Mart not 50 years ago or 20 years ago, but just a few months ago.
She complains to the store. They profusely apologize and promise to get to the bottom of the matter and get back to her with answers. They do not call. Weeks go by and she hears nothing.
She finally goes to the press. The store claims that they were unable to find out who did this, so they have decided to do nothing. Then they offewr her a “settlemnt”.
She sues. I hope she gets a massive settlement.
The evil of slavery cannot be wished away, cannot be legislated away, cannot be paid away. Like some potent nuclear waste it will remain in the soil of our country for years and years to come. Racism is not a separate issue from slavery, but another ugly outgrowth of the original evil. If we really want to progress toward a better and more equal society, all of us should condemn racism and racist propaganda at every opportunity, but especially racist ideas promoted by those whose race is the same as our own. That’s where the condemnation carries the most weight.
BaBaBooey you are typical of the type of person who scratches his head about why people are hung up about race. I don’t think you have any empathy about what it is like to be a Black person living in America.
Here is a quote from you
I think we agree on this, but for different reason. I think some people who wave the CBF do it because they are racists. You seem to agree that they are racists, but only because they were forced into it by Black racists. Right…
I can’t believe that you actually said this. Hey, my white ancestors were able to pull themselve up by the bootstraps, why can’t the blacks? Well…let’s take a look at what would have happened if your grandfather was black. Your GF would have been the son or grandson of a slave. His parents and grandparents, were probably illiterate. Chances are he would have been dirt poor like your real GF. He would have attended the substandard segregated schools for blacks. After graduating from school with a substandard education he would have tried to get a job. He would find that only certain jobs were open to black people, instead of the world of opportunities that are available to white people. If he got a decent job, he would find out that his white counterparts received more pay for the same work. He would have had a much more difficult time getting a loan, be it for a home or a business. If he was able to be successful against all these odds, he would not have been allowed to flaunt his wealth because he might have been lynched for being uppity. Or lets just say that he was lynched when he was 18 for whistling at a white woman, and you were never born.
Some of the same dynamics happen today. If a white kid has problems with schoolwork, there are a lot more options. Chances are he goes to a better school than one that is in ‘urban’ area. Chances are better that his parents are educated. If he doesn’t get trigonometry he can go to his dad. He can study at a better library. His parents can afford special tutors or educational programs. The black kid does not have all these options.
If a white kid is diagnosed with as being hyperactive, counseling sessions are set up with the school psychologists. He might be presribed expensive prescription drug. If a black kid is diagnosed as being hyperactive, well… he’s SOL. He is categorized as being unruly or a troublemaker. He’ll eventually be counseled by a peace officer.
This is the difference between people like us and people like you. You and your kind say that segregation has been over for years now, so everything is equal. We say that all these problems that existed do not go away with a wave of a magic wand. There are institutional problems that will take generations to correct. Black people are not asking special treatment, but they do need help making sure the playing field is level.
Tomndebb…My statement is extremely valid. Here’s why:
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Is it my grandparents’ fault that governments manipulate people and families for their own end?
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My grandparents got menial jobs for very limited periods of time [shoveling coal and carrying ice] and they were homeless periodically and slept in public parks as teenagers and young adults. They came from Germany to Chicago just as the Great Depression hit…when it became impossible for them to hold on to a job.
Maybe you should ask me for the facts before you judge my family and consider them guilty of “replacing blacks” [in terms of housing and jobs].
As if just because they’re white…life should’ve automatically treated them just great.
My cards are on the table. It’s a royal flush.
This discussion is over.
Micky, you’re grandparents success story relates to blacks how?
Yeah, you’ve won this discussion. Score!
[sup]Is it me, or does this sound familiar?[/sup]
Mikey: you just really stepped in it…
tomndebb wasn’t accusing your grandparents of collusion in a grand conspiracy; just being immigrants, they may very well have not perceived the social dynamic in the work environment. What he did say is that your grandparents, just like mine ( who were already around the 5th or 6th generation American) benefitted, willingly or not, knowingly or not, from the rampant discrimination taking place at the time.
And because your (and mine) grandparents benefitted, so did your (and mine) parents, and you (and I), over the children and grandchildren of the blacks who were supplanted in the workforce.
If you had read what he had written, instead of what you wanted to see (as a personal attack upon you), you would have gotten this. With your post count, you may not know this, but tomndebd is one of the most intelligent, articulate and even-tempered people on this board. Don’t just assume that because he, or anyone else for that matter, disagrees with you that they don’t like you, or are somehow attacking your intelligence or moral fibre.
When those attacks come, they’ll be pretty obvious.
Slight hijack, but why should this woman be able to successfully sue (assuming that her merchandise was satisfactory and received properly)?
Should Jesse Jackson be required to compensate Jewish people for referring to New York City as “Hymietown”?
P.S. I agree that the conduct in question is offensive and inappropriate. What I question is whether it should be sanctionable under the law.
I might be wrong, but I don’t think anyone in this thread has advocated reparations, so I don’t know who it is you are arguing with mikeymichaels. Everyone here seem to agree that reparations are impossible to implement. Also the fact that some blacks advocate it, does not mean that all blacks agree with it.
I will let Tomndebb elaborate, but he is trying to explain the concept that you do not have to do racist acts to contribute to racism. Even if your grandparents didn’t commit a single overtly racist act, it still doesn’t change the fact that they benefited from racism.
Let me give you another example. Lets say that you don’t have a racist bone in your body, but you don’t know a single black person you would consider a good friend. You aren’t a bad person, but you are causing a racial situation. You find out about a job opening. You put in a good word for your friend. Your friend beats out a black applicant who looks good on paper. This wasn’t out of racism, because you know your friend. He is a hard worker, and an employer will always pick a person who is vouched for over someone who looks good on paper. You have unknowingly created an ‘white club’ The end result is that a black person doesn’t get a job because he didn’t have the connections. These innocent actions happen a thousand times a day, and they have a negative effect on the welfare of the black man.
First of all, as I said before, I feel that only some of the people who display the Confederate flag are racist, definitely not all. Second, I wasn’t saying that blacks drove whites into racism, I was just saying that you shouldn’t make today’s whites look like the bad guys, because there’s definitely plenty of racism on the other side. Third, regarding your most recent post, do blacks have no connections? A nearby supermarket has about 90% of its workforce being blacks, this in a predominately white neighborhood. This store has a black management. Are you sure that these “connections” don’t work both ways? As a white person who is currently looking for a job, do you see me complaining? Absolutely not, because there are PLENTY of jobs available for anyone who wants one. Finally, I agree that it was harder for a black person to live in the 50’s, but it certainly wasn’t impossible for a black person to succeed. And I feel that your story of whites getting better treatment in today’s schools has very little substance. Students of all races will have trouble getting guidance in public schools simply because (and I agree 100%) when taxpayer’s money is being used, a lot of people don’t want there money going to things other than education(such as counselors) when parents are the ones who should be the child’s guidance. Private schools are a different story, and judging by what I’ve seen from both a private grammar school and high school, blacks get the exact same treatment as whites.
Bababooey do you hear yourself?
If what you say is true, then you could have come up with a better way of saying it then:
I think it is very telling that you chose the example that you did. Yes, they do have connections, but it is usually connections that can get them menial jobs. I have no doubt that what you say is true. White neighborhood where blacks predominantly hold menial service jobs. I don’t know how you think this helps your argument. White neighborhood with blacks holding most of the menial jobs shows that they have connections, hence there is no substantial racism against blacks?!? It would be a different story if you had said that blacks make up the majority of this supermarket’s district managers, and board members.
Yes, sometimes it does work the other way. Here in California, it it impossible for someone who is other than a Hispanic illegal alien to get day labor. The contractors who hire them know that they can get away with a lot more with illegal aliens. Are white people really hurting because of this? Black people make up 12% of the national population. What black network of connections is preventing you from breaking into any industry? What is there for you to complain about?
So your argument is: My grandfather did it. A few black people did it. Why can’t all blacks do it? It is a very unfair question. I can reply in kind and say: Your grandfather did it. A few black people did it. There is no reason for any white person to be poor. Unfair, right? Poverty is difficult to get out of, whether you are black or white. I am just stating that more black suffer from poverty, and that they have to deal with poverty and racism
This is true if you choose only to look at schools in nice neighborhoods. In these instances there is no difference in black students and white students. The black students in these schools are typically children of black professionals, and they can actually go to their parents for help. I noticed you chose to ignore poor black students in poorer school districts.