Now there’s a classy way to “win” an argument. May I use that sometime? Making a point logically and intelligently just doesn’t have the same panache.
mikey, I call low poker and I’ll play the A,2,3,4 of clubs and the six of spades.
Your parents can pass for White. That little thing means a whole lot in this country. Most of their decendants can pass for White as well. Because of that, they have a better chance of their hard work paying off. They can gain automatic respect among other people in society. Cops will not profile them and detain them on the spot. Banks feel much more comfortable giving out generous lending rates to poor immigrants than they do to Black judges. I am happy that your parents moved upward from where they started. I just wish I had something equivalent to White skin privilege.
Hmmmm, it seems that most of my intended responses to mikeymichaels have already been made.
I would like to reiterate that I am not accusing your ancestors of evil. They did, however, benefit from the last-hired-first-fired policy in place against blacks. My ancestors also benefitted. My grandparents were genuinely good people. However, when a job opened up during the depression, I have never heard that any of them asked whether a black had held that job in 1929. They took the job.
(I can actually point out that my Mom’s ancestors were, themselves, discriminated against, being Irish immigrants at the end of the eighteenth century. That does not change the fact that when the various boom-and-bust cycles that culminated in the Great Depression affected the economy, they had an edge over blacks in getting (re-)hired.)
If your ancestors actually joined some of the (very few) unions that attempted to secure equal rights for blacks, then my general comments do not apply to your ancestors. Failing that, they (and you) did benefit from the way in which blacks have been oppressed.
getting into the depression, Immagine that you are a poor black farmer in the midwest. The dust bowl begins and your crops fail. Where do you turn? What do you do? Your education level is lauaghable. You can barely read the terms of your loan that you barely got. You do the thing you can. You lose your home, your way of life. And then you move to the city in order to give you and your famaily a better chance at life. This is the 1930’s discrimination is rampant. America is not a fair place. If you are not white, your simply not american. If your parents just got of the boat from Europe, your not american either and so are you. Practicaly every big city had a “black” neighborhood, “italian”, “chinese” and so on…
Each neiborhood employed only of there own race and going to to another neiborhood was out of the question. a black man working in a white neiborhood and other bastions of power? gardener and janitor if that.
America has never been a fair country. It’s a plain truth undisguised and ugly. However, since we now have laws that dictate that everyone should be fair about everything. It’s unfortuante that hardly anyone plays by the rules, be it upbringing, a bad personal experiance, whatever. It just made another person in american society shut out a portion of if be cause the age old divison of race. “Race” the idea that we are different due to skin and facial features is simply ignorant and outdated. if you abolish the idea of race you get rid of many of the racail problems of today. It could be done, but no country will be willing to today.
National pride and other silly notions get in the way.
About the same time non-Catholics drop the Crusades and the Inquisition as examples of the wrong done by the RCC.
**
But earlier you said:
“You also bring up racism towards blacks as a reason that blacks don’t let go of the past, but maybe racism of blacks towards whites is a reason that some whites still display the confederate flag.”
It’s a little unclear to me what the point of the Confederate flag is, in your opinion. It seems to me that you’re saying that a certain set of Whites don’t like Blacks, and they symbolize that dislike with a flag which they know will antagonize the Blacks, (in fact, a flag which produces antagonism because historically it has been a symbol of slavery and racism,) but they’re not racist.
It’s as if someone put a Nazi flag on his car because he felt like Jewish shopkeepers were cheating him- but hey, he’s not antisemitic, he just doesn’t like Jews and uses the Nazi flag to express that fact.
**
Since you see this as being a good deal, I have to ask: have you applied for a job at this supermarket and been turned down?
And do you seriously suggest that there are, say, investement firms in which 90% of the workforce is Black?
**
Have you read Black Boy, by Richard Wright?
For that matter, do you know the history of Marcus Garvey’s Black Star Line?
-Ben
quote:
Second, I wasn’t saying that blacks drove whites into racism, I was just saying that you shouldn’t make today’s whites look like the bad guys, because there’s definitely plenty of racism on the other side.
If what you say is true, then you could have come up with a better way of saying it then:
quote:
You also bring up racism towards blacks as a reason that blacks don’t let go of the past, but maybe racism of blacks towards whites is a reason that some whites still display the confederate flag.
You’re right, I should have said don’t make racist whites look like the only bad guys, assuming that’s the contradiction you were pointing out.
“It would be a different story if you had said that blacks make up the majority of this supermarket’s district managers, and board members.”
Maybe they are. I’ve never met the majority of it’s district managers and board members.
“There is no reason for any white person to be poor. Unfair, right?”
Actually, I find it to be a very fair statement. With so many jobs available (regardless of how little these jobs pay) to people with even the worst educations, no one should be so poor that they live on the streets or need financial aid from the government to live, excluding health reasons. Minimum wage pays, what, $13K a year full time? Apartments can easily be found for $600 or less a month, so find a roomate and $300 a month leads to $3600 a year to have a roof over your head, a respectable car can be had for $3K, and you’ve still got half of your salary to spend on food, car insurance, and shits and giggles. Of course, this isn’t the high life, and would be much more difficult if the person had to support children (and who’s fault would that be, the taxpayers?), but very easily done.
“The black students in these schools are typically children of black professionals, and they can actually go to their parents for help. I noticed you chose to ignore poor black students in poorer school districts.”
Last time I checked, poor black students almost always go to public schools unless the parents go beyond the call of duty to send there student to a private school while sacrificing a decent portion of their funds (which I admire greatly, if you can’t get out of poverty yourself, what a good idea help your kids get themselves out of it), which I gave my opinion on in my last thread.
"It’s a little unclear to me what the point of the Confederate flag is, in your opinion. It seems to me that you’re saying that a certain set of Whites don’t like Blacks, and they symbolize that dislike with a flag which they know will antagonize the Blacks, (in fact, a flag which produces antagonism because historically it has been a symbol of slavery and racism,) but they’re not racist. "
I believe there was a recent thread on this forum about why people still display the Confederate flag, which I participated in. If it’s that big of a deal to you, just go ahead and look it up. And if the Confederate flag is ONLY about antagonizing blacks, as you say it is, why would people in the rural south, where there are practically no blacks, display the Confederate flag? It can’t antagonize blacks if there are none around.
"It’s as if someone put a Nazi flag on his car because he felt like Jewish shopkeepers were cheating him- but hey, he’s not antisemitic, he just doesn’t like Jews and uses the Nazi flag to express that fact. "
Isn’t that repetitive? If someone dislikes Jews as a whole just because they’re Jewish, doesn’t that make them antisemetic?
“Since you see this as being a good deal, I have to ask: have you applied for a job at this supermarket and been turned down?”
I don’t get what you mean by me seeing this as a “good deal”, but yes, I did apply for a job there, and they never called me back. I don’t want to imply it was any sort of racism though, since several stores never called me back about my application, not to mention that, to my knowledge, whoever does the hiring doesn’t know my race, so they couldn’t discriminate even if they wanted to.
"Have you read Black Boy, by Richard Wright?
For that matter, do you know the history of Marcus Garvey’s Black Star Line?"
Do you want to take a guess on that? Anyway, if they claim that it was impossible for blacks to succeed in the 50’s, I disagree. And of course it all depends on what you consider “success.”
I’ve re-read this several times, thinking that I might be looking at it wrong. I checked an earlier post and confirmed that you (BabaBooey) live in Louisiana. Maybe this is a typo, or maybe you’re talking about the rural south of, say, Norway?
I grew up in the rural south of the US–east Texas, 30 miles from the Louisiana line. Unless demographics have changed dramatically since I was home last Christmas, there are lots of black people in the rural south. Lots.
Don’t want to make you feel unwelcome here, BabaBooey; I’m a newbie here myself. But I would recommend trying to exercise a little self-control, and maybe doing a little research on what you post. It’s clear that your purpose here is not to make friends, and the majority isn’t always right. But what is suggested by the fact that you’ve already been warned by a moderator and alienated most of your readers?
The Confederate Battle flag is NOT, as some people seem to think, a representation of slavery or “southern pride”.
Rather it show pride in …you guessed it, treason againest the United States Government. Both "sides’ of the issue just have too many hang-ups about being 1) enslaved or
2) having their arse whupped, that they have forgotten the true meaning of the flag
When I was referring to the rural south, I was talking about Mississippi and Alabama. On my trips to these states, I’ve seen very few blacks. Obviously Louisiana is full of blacks, especially New Orleans, and has always been more diverse than the rest of the south.
Which Mississippi? The River?
Uhhh…have you forgotten what the original debate is about? This discussion is about lingering black anger about slavery/segregation/racism. Who do you think will come out looking like the bad guys. The Turks? Korean-Americans? No, the racist whites. I really do want to know who else should be blamed. Let me venture a guess. You think that blacks shoulder a lot of the blame as well, right?
Again you fail to get the point. Your proof that blacks have connections is that most of the people who work in the supermarket are blacks. I point out that those are menial service jobs, and that you don’t really need connections to get those kinds of jobs. Ben and I suggest that it would be different if many of them held well paying, prestigious jobs. Your reply is: maybe they do. I was rolling on the floor. We refute your point, and you maintain that your point is valid because maybe.
Well damn if things are so damn good, why are you still looking for a job? If things are so damn rosy, it should take you no longer than a week to get a job. Or maybe things are only clear cut when you talk about people other than yourself.
Wow, another zinger. There is no reason why anyone can’t get a minimum wage job. Not only that, there is no reason why they can’t have a minimum wage job and send their kids to private school! I don’t know what planet you live on or what you consider private school, but most middle class people (of any race) have a hard time affording private school.
OMFG. I just read this while I was composing my reply. You have got to be kidding me. You didn’t see blacks so they didn’t exist? Well, now that I think about it, for BabaBooey it is par for course. I see black with jobs, so there is no discrimination. My white grandfather succeeded, so every black person can.
I can tell by your username and posts that you think that you have learned everything you need to know in life by listening to the Howard Stern Show. Maybe you thought you could test out your wealth of knowledge on our boards. It is not gonna cut it.
From the most recent census:
Blacks make up 26% of the population of Alabama, 36.3% of the population of Mississippi, 32.5% of the population of Louisiana, (slightly fewer than in Mississippi), and 11.5% of the population of Texas contrasted against the general percentage in the whole U.S. of 12.3%.
I suppose that it is possible that all the blacks in Alabama and Mississippi live in the cities, but at more than 1/4 and more than 1/3 of those populations, I tend to doubt it.
I am reading this with my mouth hanging open. I consider myself pretty hard to shock, but this succeeded in shocking me. I’m not shocked by the facts in the statement, because there aren’t any. I’m just shocked that anyone who claims to have been to these states can believe that there isn’t a sizeable black population there. By implication, this person also believes that those black people who do live there have nothing to complain about. Flabbergasting.
Paraphrasing Lily Tomlin, no matter how cynical I get, it’s still not enough to keep up. In the presence of white people with BabaBooey’s attitude, it is really embarrassing to be white.
Look on the good side guys. Next time there is a “Dumbest thing ever heard” thread on IMHO, we can all participate.
If you’re still reading, I’d just like to say that in spite of all our differences, I don’t want to laugh you off. I do tend to agree with ** archmicheal**'s remark, but there’s something more at stake here, and I really want you to see this side of it. We’re not trying to defeat you, we’re trying to make things better.
The debates I’ve participated in on this board have been limited to religion and race. In the religion debates, it would never occur to me to try to persuade someone else of my beliefs–even though I think religion damages society and individuals as well, I also have to agree that it does some good, and some religious people are pretty decent. When someone dismisses my ideas on religion, I shrug it off. You have your beliefs, I have mine.
Racism is different. It does no good for anyone. It hurts people. It’s one of the few things I can think of that makes me angry enough to cry. The reasons are many and complex. Partly it’s because of the many wonderful, good, intelligent, hardworking, interesting, talented, kind, non-white people I know–I hate to see anyone I respect so much looked down on by anyone. Partly it’s selfish–when one white person displays intolerance or disrespect for other races, it casts a racist shadow over all white people, and that includes me. That’s a class I don’t want to be a part of. Partly it’s the feeling of guilt that honest-thinking white people experience when they realize that in some ways, life has been easier for them than for others. Partly it’s a concern for society in general.
I grew up in a culture that encouraged me to accept other races, not as equals, but as unfortunates who shouldn’t be put down too much because after all, they can’t help what color they are. When I became old enough to think, I began to consider that maybe those other races were really and truly * just as good as me*. Sometimes better. But it did take a little time to grow beyond the narrow-mindedness of my culture. (Actually meeting, interacting, working, traveling, and partying with some of these non-white people helped a little, too.)
I don’t know you well enough to write you off as hopeless. I don’t want to accuse you of insisting on clinging to an attitude that hurts others. At this point, I prefer to assume that you don’t realize that your attitude hurts others. I only ask that you give it some careful, serious thought, not only here but also away from the message boards. I’m still optimistic enough to hope that you will see it someday. You are hurting people, individual people and the society as a whole. Do you really want to do that?
Even thought we are several generations away from slavery, keep in mind that the Civil Rights Bill wasn’t passed until 1964, and there is still economic prejudice today.
In addition to “when will blacks let it go”, I ask when will Southerners take down their rebel flags?
I do a agree that restitution is NOT fair. If we were to pay every race that suffered from salvery, then perhaps the Egyptians should pay Israel.
And African-Americans also need to go to Africa and hit up those countries for money, since it was other black tribes that captured slaves and sold them to the Europeans! There was slavery in Africa long before the white man came a-knockin’!
>I do think we can do something, even if it’s along the lines of college scholarships for all blacks who desire one.
Then we better prepare to hand out free scholarships to every other group of people whom have suffered discrimination. Women, for example, had to fight to be considered human beings as well. They were treated like property with less legal rights than men, couldn’t vote, and so on.
Do you feel we should offer free scholarship to every female of college age?
You could suck the country dry trying to pay for the past.
Not to hijack this thread too much, but I suspect Stephen Metcalf would strongly disagree with you on this.
Who’s Stephen Metcalf? She’s the author of a soon-to-be-published book (whose title escapes me at the moment, alas) addressing the issue of whether or not it’s possible to make a living on minimum wage in America. To do this, she left her comfy suburban home, went to major cities like Orlando and Chicago, gave herself a fake alias as a recently-divorced single woman, and tried to live for a month on her minimum-wage income. She did this four times, and not once did she come close to living a life as effortlessly as you describe.
Yeah, it’s easy to sit behind the computer and rattle off hypothetical numbers about hourly wages, apartment prices, and what-have-you. It’s another thing all together to get off your rear and actually try to make it. Given the excerpts from Metcalf’s book that I’ve read, I’m in no hurry to try.
…but you sound like you’d be willing to volunteer. 
Bababooey, when you’re calculating how to live on any sort of wage, don’t forget to subtract taxes before you take home a dime. Then check the area before you assume a decent apartment is under $600 - that isn’t true for many parts of the country. Now start subtracting for auto maintenance, enough fuel to make it to work, heat, electricity, simple groceries, and basic health care. I’d be pretty surprised if there were any cash left over for giggles.
I have worked for minimum wage before (though I no longer have to do so); it’s neither easy nor fun. A better description would be a slow, depressing grind - trying to decide whether you can do without food for a day, or whether you can walk several miles to your job so you save the bus fare. How people manage this type of existance with children is unfathomable.