When will blacks let the past go?

[Ben]

*Originally posted by BabaBooey *
**You said “historically it has been a symbol of slavery and racism”, which I felt you were implying that the flag is basically just a sign of racism. I apoligize if I made a false assumption.

**

Apology accepted, but let me ask a couple of questions:

1. Do you agree that historically the Confederate flag has been used as racists by a symbol, precisely because of its connection to racism?

2. Do you think it’s unreasonable of Blacks to view the Confederate flag as being a racist symbol, given that the people who fought under it were fighting for slavery?

3. You’ve stated more than once in this thread that people here are being anti-South, or are assuming that all people who fly the Confederate flag are racists. Examples, please?

**
“If, as you say, the display of the Confederate flag by Whites is a response to Black-on-White racism, then why do they do it when there are no Blacks around?”
As I said before “I feel that only some of the people who display the Confederate flag are racist, definitely not all.”

**

The problem is that it’s unclear what, exactly, you’re saying. You seem to have said that Whites are displaying the flag as a response to Black racism, but when I ask you to clarify your comments, you switch to saying that not all of the people who display the flag are racist, and you don’t clarify your original position at all. Does that mean that the flag-wavers who are responding against Black racism are themselves racist? Because if you ask me, that’s what it sounds like when I ask you about the Confederate flag as a response to Black racism and you respond only by saying that not all Whites who display the flag are racist.

Once and for all, what is your position here? It seems like I keep trying to verify your position only to have you tell me something else.

**
“If a Black person doesn’t get a job because they don’t have connections to the White employers, then does that not count as discrimination?”

It would be equally discriminating against those whites who don’t have connections to the white employers. It wouldn’t necessarily be a matter of race.

**

No? But you yourself said that it was, at least in part, a matter of race, since Blacks are, in your view, more likely to have connections to Black employers, and that counterbalances any effect by which Whites can get jobs through connections to White employers. Again, it’s hard having this conversation with you if I can’t figure out what you’re trying to say.

**
You’re right, I should have at least thanked you for recognizing my being intelligent enough to be literate. No I’ve never read either of the books.

**

Don’t you see that if you’re going to be giving your opinion on the Black Condition, you would do well to educate yourself about the facts? And I ask again, why should I assume that you haven’t heard of them? It’s an interesting assumption, and I’m curious as to why you made it.

Tell you what, Bababooey. Read Black Boy, and I’d be very interested in hearing what you have to say about it. Because if nothing else, it would enhance this kind of conversation for you to know about it, even if you disagree with my conclusions about the book.

**
You are right about the fact that I shouldn’t dismiss evidence just because I disagree with it. And the reason I dismiss it is because I don’t believe that there wasn’t a single successful black person in the 50’s.

**

What is your point, though? Has anyone said that success was “impossible” for Blacks in the 1950’s? It seems to me that once again you’re fighting a straw man.

The reason I brought up Garvey is because your position seems hopelessly naive. Garvey’s movement tried to establish a Black-owned ship line, called the Black Star Line, as part of a general plan for Black economic self sufficiency. When they got successful, Whites set about sabotaging the operation. The problem is that you seem to say, “As long as one person can get up the hill, there’s no reason for Blacks to complain that their hill is higher than the White hill.” Not only is that a problematic view because of the logic (there was a kid who escaped the Tulsa Race Riots- does that mean the Riots were no big deal? For that matter, do you even know what the Tulsa Riots were?) but your view of the facts is wrong. It’s not that the Black hill was a little higher, so 90% of the climbers got tired. It’s that 50% of the climbers got tired, and 80% of the remainder were shot off the top by White snipers. For that matter, you don’t seem to understand how high the hill really was, even without the fact that Whites frequently sabotaged Black successes in the end.

**
I would consider success living in a nice home and having enough money to buy not only what is necessary to live, but things that are only useful in making your life more enjoyable.

**

And so if a Black person could become middle class, that means that it’s not a big deal that they couldn’t become, say, aviators? I’m sorry if I’m putting words in your mouth, but it’s very hard for me to figure out what conclusion you’re trying to support.

**Can you say narrowminded? If someone tried to start an argument with me over what race generally performed better in school, Asians or whites, and he is in favor of Asians, do you think I would cry racism? Even if I didn’t already feel this to be true (Asians generally being smarter than whites), if he showed me statistics on paper showing Asians more often than not outperforming whites of similar education, what’s racist about that?
**

Is that to say that you do, in fact, think that Blacks are dumber than Whites?

-Ben

[eprince]

As a black male living the the US I find it crazy the way white people look at the world. A friend of mine is considered a thug if he spend his money putting gold teeth in his mouth but the white guy that spends his money on some expensive car envied. It’s as if your way is the only right way.

All I want is a fair shake.

Though I make more money than most of my white friends I get followed by security in the mall. I get passed up by cabs. I have women clinching their purses in elevators.

I am not supposed to be bothered by that?

It does not matter how much money I make. How nice I dress. How proper I speak. I will always be black and looked down upon by some members of society.

I am not supposed to be bothered by that?

And white people wonder why blacks seem so angry around them.
Why do some people look down on black people?

Because of the past.

You defend flying the Confederate flag. A flag which you know symbolizes a time when my people were physically oppressed.

You look down on my people if they don’t talk or dress a certain way.

You pull us over before we have done any crime.

And you want us to forget why this is happening to us?
You want us to ignore the reason why all shit being dumped on us in the first place?

Anyone who thinks black should let go of the past is an idiot.

I’m not letting go of shit.

[december]

*Originally posted by Biggirl *
**http://stats.bls.gov/opub/mlr/2000/12/art2full.pdf
As per this study white women drop out at more than twice the rate of black women.
**

Biggirl, is your statement above based on Table 1? If it is, then I do not agree with your interpretation.

Table 1 says in part:

Sample Means in the full sample and in seleted subgroups
Category…[b]All dropouts**

Race or Ethnicity:
—Black------------------------------------.22
—Hispanic--------------------------------.23
—Non-Hispanic --------------------------.54

As I read it, all the women in this study were dropouts. The study investigated the value to them of going back to school.

The study involved a sample of women, all of whom had dropped out of school. I believe the figures above represent the portion of the sample belonging to each race or ethnicity. Note that in each column, the three numbers sum to 1.00. (The first column, shown here, sums to .99, presumably because of roundoff.)

In short, my interpretation is that the percentages above refer to the fraction of participants in this study rather than to dropout rates.

[archmichael]

*Originally posted by Ben *
**

**Can you say narrowminded? If someone tried to start an argument with me over what race generally performed better in school, Asians or whites, and he is in favor of Asians, do you think I would cry racism? Even if I didn’t already feel this to be true (Asians generally being smarter than whites), if he showed me statistics on paper showing Asians more often than not outperforming whites of similar education, what’s racist about that?
**

Is that to say that you do, in fact, think that Blacks are dumber than Whites?

-Ben **

I knew this is what he was getting at, which is why I was dismayed at December for supplying ‘facts’ to someone who would interprete it in the worst manner. Then December after having read Bababooey’s ‘clarification’ quoted above says,

I don’t know who’s a racist. However, it seems unfair to indict BabaBooey for racism because s/he expressed opinions that turn out to be factually correct.

I didn’t realize that saying blacks are dumber than whites is factually correct.

[MrO]

I won’t insult you by saying that I know what you feel, because I do know enough to know that I can’t. But I will say that what you say sounds righteous to me, and I respect it.

[berdollos]

I don’t think most African Americans (“blacks” to you) either expect or are demanding reparations for slavery.

This is contradictory to the assumption of the OP.

[december]

*Originally posted by archmichael *
**I didn’t realize that saying blacks are dumber than whites is factually correct. **

archmichael, your snide remark suggests that you believe people should be punished for speaking unpleasant truths. If you think BabaBooey is a racist, go ahead and make your arguments. However, you weaken your case when you criticize his accuarate statements, e.g. the ones about college completion rates.

There are various ways that one could respond to his statement about Asians being smarter on average. One could: [li]argue that the cause is cultural. []argue that the cause is genetic. []deny that Asians are smarter despite higher average IQ and SAT scores. call the person who made the statement a racist.[/li]
IMHO the last response is the easiest but the least helpful.

[archmichael]

Before I respond, let me explain why I am being so hard on you. People like Bababooey do not worry me. Their blindness to racial issues, contradictory arguments, and illogical world views are easy to refute. I have a feeling that Bababooey’s arguments helped more people see our side than any of the direct arguments offered by MrO, Ben, Tomndebb, Biggirl, or myself. (My apologies to anyone I forgot to mention.) However when a seemingly reasonable poster like yourself lends credence to people like Bababooey, you do more damage than Bababooey can ever do. This is why I am harder on you than Bababooey.

Yes, I was being snide with you. You claim to like facts. This is why I questioned your timing. You chose not to chime in when Bababooey made the ridiculous statement that there are virtually no blacks in the rural South. However you chose to support his arguments that college education is a measurement of racial intelligence.

Before we go further I will have to ask you to come out and state your position. It seem to me that you are continuing to address the issue as pertaining to Bababooey. Do you believe that college completion rates show the relative intelligence of whites, blacks, Hispanics, and Asians?

College education is only a quick measure of someone’s level of education. It is not an indicator of intelligence. Some very intelligent people choose to not attend college, or not to graduate. Is a college graduate necessarily smarter than someone who never attended college? Is someone who pursues an advanced degree necessarily smarter than someone who only has a bachelors degree? To think so would be incorrect. To take a leap in reasoning and apply it to whole races is sophistry.

If college completion rates is a measure of racial intelligence, how much less intelligent were blacks during slavery where very few freemen attended college? Did they get smarter as a group when during segregation, more blacks started attending negro colleges? Did they make another quantum leap when more blacks than ever are attending college now? If in the future a higher percentage of blacks attend and graduate from college than whites will they be a smarter race than whites?

There are various ways that one could respond to his statement about Asians being smarter on average. One could:
argue that the cause is cultural

I believe that I addressed this issue when I stated:

Where as you and I would take a look at the numbers and say that it proves that blacks are not getting the same level of education going into college, people like Bababooey look at the same numbers as proof that blacks are less intelligent.

argue that the cause is genetic.

Even with individuals it is tough to determine how much of a persons intelligence is affected by genetics and how much by the environment. Why is it okay to say that it is purely genetics when we start talking about groups of people?

deny that Asians are smarter despite higher average IQ and SAT scores.

Yes, I do deny that Asians are smarter than any other group. SAT scores are not an indicator of intelligence. It is once again a measure of a students level of education. There was a study done by a person who continued to take the SAT test at five year intervals. Each time he scored better than the previous time. Did this person get smarter as he grew older, or did he just become more knowledgeable? As far as IQ tests, I don’t believe that they are the best measure of intelligence.

call the person who made the statement a racist.

Anyone who uses these facts to advocate the inferiority or superiority of a race is a racist. Bababooey admitted that he believes it, so he is a racist. If you see these facts as evidence of the intellectual inferiority of blacks, you are a racist as well.

[Biggirl]

*Originally posted by december *
**

archmichael, your snide remark suggests that you believe people should be punished for speaking unpleasant truths.
**
[/QUOTE]

Our friend Baba did not speak an unpleasant truth. He said that blacks don’t have high paying jobs because they drop out of school.

I would personally love to see the percentage of blacks that graduate from college, ratios of blacks to whites that do graduate from college, and the average GPA of blacks vs. the average GPA of whites after having graduated. Although it’s just a prediction, I’d bet that the results will give the main reason that a higher percentage of whites have well paying jobs than blacks.

But blacks who graduate from college are paid less than whites who graduate from college. Whites who do not graduate from college make more than blacks who do not graduate from college. How do college completion rates have anything to do with the disparity in salaries?

What you said december is also not an unpleasant truth.

I have read that over 50% of Blacks fail to graduate from college. The problem is affirmative action (preferences), which tend to put Black students into colleges where they are worse-than-average students.

Where is the unpleasant truth in your statement? The only unpleasant thing I see here is your broad and erroneous assumption on why blacks drop out of college, plus the omission of the fact that overall drop out rates for college was at around 33%.

And to think I defended you against charges of prejudice. I think I’ll have to revise my opinion.

[december]

*Originally posted by archmichael *
Before we go further I will have to ask you to come out and state your position. It seems to me that you are continuing to address the issue as pertaining to Bababooey. Do you believe that college completion rates show the relative intelligence of whites, blacks, Hispanics, and Asians?

OK, mike, here’s my position. IMHO you are guilty of Racial McCarthyism. Although you are well-intentioned, I believe your heavy-handed approach is more likely to worsen racism than improve it. That’s why I chimed in.

Getting to your specific questions: As I said earlier, the lower-than-average college completion rate for Blacks is primarily an unintended consequence of affirmative action.

One must be careful, because the word “intelligence” has at least two possible meanings. One is “current intelligence” as is measured on an IQ test. Using this definition, intelligence is a fairly objective quantity. From what I have read, on average IQ scores in the US are higher for Asians than Caucasians, and higher for Caucasians than Blacks. However, those averages tell us nothing about individuals. There’s little doubt that David Blackwell’s IQ is higher than that of any poster.

“Intelligence” is also used to mean some innate ability. This is impossible to measure in an individual.

When one considers groups, the element of culture looms large. Who can measure the impact of the disadvantages suffered by Blacks? If there were no racism, no poverty, no bad schools, and if cultural values were identical, would average Black IQ’s be higher, lower or the same as average Asian IQ’s? There’s no way to know, in my opinion.

If college completion rates is a measure of racial intelligence, how much less intelligent were blacks during slavery where very few freemen attended college? Did they get smarter as a group when during segregation, more blacks started attending Negro colleges? Did they make another quantum leap when more blacks than ever are attending college now? If in the future a higher percentage of blacks attend and graduate from college than whites will they be a smarter race than whites?

These are rhetorical questions, but I will answer them. Certainly the genes haven’t changed appreciably. Improvements in nutrition, medical care, etc. may have increased intelligence. And, greater education has probably caused IQ scores to rise.

Whereas you and I would take a look at the numbers and say that it proves that blacks are not getting the same level of education going into college, people like Bababooey** look at the same numbers as proof that blacks are less intelligent.**

As I said, it depends on which definition of “intelligence” one is using.

** Even with individuals it is tough to determine how much of a person’s intelligence is affected by genetics and how much by the environment. Why is it okay to say that it is purely genetics when we start talking about groups of people? **

Here we fully agree. It’s impossible to separate out the impact of genetics, because the cultural and economic differences have so much impact.

** As far as IQ tests, I don’t believe that they are the best measure of intelligence.**

Again, it depends on your definition. By one definition IQ tests don’t just measure intelligence, they* define* it.

By the way mike, I agree that IQ tests have weaknesses, but I’d be interested to know what measures of intelligence you think are superior.

**Anyone who uses these facts to advocate the inferiority or superiority of a race is a racist. Bababooey admitted that he believes it, so he is a racist. If you see these facts as evidence of the intellectual inferiority of blacks, you are a racist as well. **
It depends on whether one is addressing actual performance or genetic potential. I would invite Bababooey to clarify his/her intended meaning.

[wring]

odd that you still assert december that blacks drop out of college because of affirmative action.
since you stated before:

Regarding your request for proof of causation, I doubt whether the kind of survey you’ve requested even exists. I’ve never heard of such a thing. I do know that affirmative action has resulted in Blacks being accepted with substantially worse than average academic records. I know that they fail to graduate to a substantially greater degree. Cause and effect seems apparent, but I can’t prove it scientifically.

as some one who works with statistics, you should be much more aware of the fallacy of assuming causality.

Since many college students drop out, why would you assume that for black students, the reason is ‘affirmative action’ instead of all of the other reasons that college students in general drop out?
and, as I posted above (along with the relevant study), it seems that when you first look at black college students after 4 years and see the completion rate you get one number but when you increase the number of years to 6, there’s quite a jump. Apparently affirmative action only has a negative impact for 4 years, but goes away after 6?

[archmichael]

McCarthyism…hmmm. So let’s take a look at the implication. McCarthy wrongly accused people of Communism in the manner of a witch hunt. So I had wrongly accused Bababooey of racism? Are all people who speak out loudly against racism, guilty of racial McCarthyism? If Ben and MrO both consider Baba a racist, are they considered racial McCarthyists? If he is a racist, will you take your name calling back?

You seem to to be saying all the right words against racism, but once again I question the timing and people you choose to argue with.

Getting to your specific questions: As I said earlier, the lower-than-average college completion rate for Blacks is primarily an unintended consequence of affirmative action.

As I have said, Baba is choosing to interpret this as meaning that blacks are dumber than whites. You do not speak out against him, but instead choose to argue with me because I called him on it. Curious.

One must be careful, because the word “intelligence” has at least two possible meanings. One is “current intelligence” as is measured on an IQ test. Using this definition, intelligence is a fairly objective quantity. From what I have read, on average IQ scores in the US are higher for Asians than Caucasians, and higher for Caucasians than Blacks. However, those averages tell us nothing about individuals. There’s little doubt that David Blackwell’s IQ is higher than that of any poster.

Once again, none of this ambiguity about the exact definition of intelligence is directed at the person who says that one race is smarter than another, but to the person who says that all races are equal.

When one considers groups, the element of culture looms large. Who can measure the impact of the disadvantages suffered by Blacks? If there were no racism, no poverty, no bad schools, and if cultural values were identical, would average Black IQ’s be higher, lower or the same as average Asian IQ’s? There’s no way to know, in my opinion

The basic difference between you and me. I have no problem answering that all the races equal. You are not sure if the races would be equal if all other factors were taken away.

By the way mike, I agree that IQ tests have weaknesses, but I’d be interested to know what measures of intelligence you think are superior.

I don’t particularly care. I think talking about whether one person or another has a higher IQ is stupid. To sit around try to find IQ differences between races is ridiculous.

Anyone who uses these facts to advocate the inferiority or superiority of a race is a racist. Bababooey admitted that he believes it, so he is a racist. If you see these facts as evidence of the intellectual inferiority of blacks, you are a racist as well.
It depends on whether one is addressing actual performance or genetic potential. I would invite Bababooey to clarify his/her intended meaning.

Maybe you want to rethink this statement. The kindler, gentler KKK and Aryan Nation both use the ‘new’ definition of ‘nigger’. At their rallys they claim to be against ‘niggers’ not black people. They claim that there are ‘niggers’ of all races, even whites. They claim to not have a problem with the good black people. You know, the ones that get an education, get a job, take care of their families. You know, the ones that live up to their potential. Now by your definition, these people are not racists. Maybe they are simply stating unpleasant truths?

[CheapBastid]

*Originally posted by wring *
Apparently affirmative action only has a negative impact for 4 years, but goes away after 6?

To risk the ‘Racist’ label I ask that you apply logic. If Affirmative Action does indeed have a negative effect, wouldn’t it be felt in the first four years? If folks are being admitted that are not prepared I would think that 4 years would weed them out, wouldn’t you?

For the record, I do not believe that Race and Intelligence have any correlation. I do think that lack of preparation and/or education can lead to poor scholastic performance.

[december]

*Originally posted by archmichael *
If Ben and MrO both consider Baba a racist, are they considered racial McCarthyists? Yes

If he is a racist, will you take your name calling back? Yes.

BabaBooey, please tell us. Are you a racist? Do you believe that one race is innately superior to another?

**As I have said, Baba is choosing to interpret this as meaning that blacks are dumber than whites. You do not speak out against him, but instead choose to argue with me because I called him on it. **

It’s a fact that Blacks have a higher average college drop out rate. It’s a fact that Blacks have lower SAT scores, on average. Just mentioning those facts isn’t a racist statement. If Baba meant that Whites are inherently superior, then it was racist.

The reason I got involved was that IMHO you, Ben and MrO were putting the worst possible interpretation on what Baba wrote. However, if your interpretation was correct, then I will retract my criticism and apologize.

Once again, none of this ambiguity about the exact definition of intelligence is directed at the person who says that one race is smarter than another, but to the person who says that all races are equal.

I accept your point. At the very best, Baba wrote in a way that could easily be interpreted as racist.

I have no problem answering that all the races equal. You are not sure if the races would be equal if all other factors were taken away.

mike, I cannot understand on what basis you conclude that all the races are equal. To me, it seems quite plausible that Blacks are inherently smarter. I thought you and I agreed that it was impossible to separate genetic vs. cultural impacts on intelligence. So, your statement that the races are equal sounds like blind faith or craven political correctness. What is your support for believing that all the races are equal?

To sit around try to find IQ differences between races is ridiculous.

I agree, when we’re discussion individuals. E.g., Amalya Kearse, bridge expert and U.S. District Judge is brilliant, regardess of race.

However, tests can be useful when evaluating policy choices. E.g., suppose Blacks are paid less than Whites. This could be due to racism. On the other hand, it could be due to worse reading skills. In one case, we would need anti-racism programs; in the other case we would need better reading programs.

Maybe you want to rethink this statement. The kindler, gentler KKK and Aryan Nation both…

Guilt by association was a hallmark of you-know-who. mike, you think too well and argue too well to stoop to his level.

[wring]

*Originally posted by CheapBastid *
**

*Originally posted by wring *
Apparently affirmative action only has a negative impact for 4 years, but goes away after 6?

To risk the ‘Racist’ label I ask that you apply logic. If Affirmative Action does indeed have a negative effect, wouldn’t it be felt in the first four years? If folks are being admitted that are not prepared I would think that 4 years would weed them out, wouldn’t you?

For the record, I do not believe that Race and Intelligence have any correlation. I do think that lack of preparation and/or education can lead to poor scholastic performance. **

If you’ve been following this, december had stated that blacks drop out due to AA. I’m suggesting that for that to be the most important reason, we should see some other demographics at work -

1. That the amount of time in college shouldn’t be a factor. If his contention (AA puts blacks in colleges where they cannot succeed) is correct, an additional 2 years time will not have any appreciable effect on the number/percentage of blacks completing college. Since the amount of time has a dramatic affect, it suggests to me that factors other than AA are at work
2. many/damn near most college students drop out. They aren’t all in there 'cause of AA. it’s not even true that all blacks are there 'cause of AA. So, if we speculate that our college consists of 100 students (to make the math easy on me ) and we have:

70 white (not there 'cause of AA)
20 black (let’s even say 10 of those there ‘cause of AA, tho’ I’d doubt that that’s what reality is)
10 ‘other’ (5 of which are there due to AA), and that the drop outs are;
40% of the whites (28 students)
50% of the blacks (10 students)
and 40% of ‘other’ (4 students), we’d have to conclude that of those black students dropping out, they all dropped out, not because of the same kind of reasons all the others dropped out, but because of AA, IOW, of those 10 students in college ‘cause of AA, they all dropped out, but of those who were there w/o AA, NONE of them (or a much lesser percentage) dropped out, even tho’ they’d be subject to the same events, conditions that make it likely that other students (Non black non AA) dropped out.

I’d say that doesn’t even begin to make sense.

[CheapBastid]

*Originally posted by wring *
**If you’ve been following this, december had stated that blacks drop out due to AA. I’m suggesting that for that to be the most important reason, we should see some other demographics at work -

1. That the amount of time in college shouldn’t be a factor. If his contention (AA puts blacks in colleges where they cannot succeed) is correct, an additional 2 years time will not have any appreciable effect on the number/percentage of blacks completing college. Since the amount of time has a dramatic affect, it suggests to me that factors other than AA are at work
2. many/damn near most college students drop out. They aren’t all in there 'cause of AA. it’s not even true that all blacks are there 'cause of AA.**

Look, I don’t know that the numbers cited are correct, and I don’t know how many folks are in there due to AA, but my point is that if underqualified students are being admitted they’re not going to hack it for 2 years.

For one to contemplate a 6 year degree, one is more likely to be prepared (no matter what your race or economic situation). My bet is that there are higher dropout rates for 4 year degrees than 6 year degrees overall.

[MrO]

*Originally posted by december *
If Ben and MrO both consider Baba a racist, are they considered racial McCarthyists? Yes
**

(The question above, in bold, had been asked by archmichael. I’m not sure I’m doing all these quotes right.)

If my considering BabaBooey’s expressed sentiments to be racist means that I am a racial McCarthyist, then I guess I’ll have to live with that label. But the threat perceived by McCarthy turned out to be not much of a big deal at all. I see a distinction between the threat of communism in the US and the damage done by racism. I think racism is a big deal.

[BabaBooey]

“anyone here think that BabaBooey has achieved any kind of victory?”

Does my opinion on this question matter? Cause it sure seems to me that I’ve countered almost all of everyone’s statements that I disagree with or that have been directed towards me. It seems a lot of you just keep calling me racist in hopes that it will make your argument right.
“per this study white women drop out at more than twice the rate of black women. Why is it that we don’t see whole rafters of well-paid black women as compared to white women?”

Honestly, I can’t say that I’ve seen too many highly paid white women. Of course, according to your next statement which I’ve quoted, that would make me gay. Although I can say that I’ve known quite a few white girls drop out of college and end up going back. Maybe that has something to do with it? I dunno, you bring up a good point that I can’t give a concrete answer for, though, again, your next quote makes your overall post sub par in content.
“A person who doesn’t see black people in the rural south sees only what they want to.”

Uh, OK. I guess it’s impossible that I saw very few blacks in my trips to rural Mississippi and Alabama, as well as Gulf Shores Alabama (Although I saw a decent number of blacks here, the ratio to whites was very, very small). I see plenty of blacks in the New Orleans area, so maybe my racism comes and goes based on the population of the area that I’m in?

“Autumn Wind Chick vibe from Bababooey.”

Don’t get it, but I’ll assume that Autumn Wind Chick was a freaking genious, in which case, I should give off a similar vibe.

“1. Do you agree that historically the Confederate flag has been used as racists by a symbol, precisely because of its connection to racism?”

Assuming you mean “used by racists as a symbol”, yes I agree. And it still is used in the same way today, but as I’ve said several times, I feel a majority of people who display it are doing it for other reasons. Therefore, I feel that no one should accuse someone who is displaying the Confederate flag of being racist. The difference between the Confederate flag and the Nazi flag, as some people continue to compare, is that (to my knowledge) the Nazis were based solely on the fact that all other races are inferior, and that its symbolism hasn’t evolved into anything different.

“2. Do you think it’s unreasonable of Blacks to view the Confederate flag as being a racist symbol, given that the people who fought under it were fighting for slavery?”

If the flag has other meanings, yes. If the U.S. got into a war with Italy, should the people living in America who are displaying the Italian flag be considered hostile? The U.S. was at war with Italy in WWI (I’m almost certain, but it may have been WWII), so should people who are currently displaying it doing so as a sign of hostility or as a reminder of when Italians were hostile towards and killed Americans?

“3. You’ve stated more than once in this thread that people here are being anti-South, or are assuming that all people who fly the Confederate flag are racists. Examples, please?”

I honestly don’t feel like going through this whole thread looking for examples. Though if you look at the Confederate flag post on this board, you will see that a lot of people fit that description, and I’m sure some of them too place in this post, as they are of similar context.

“The problem is that it’s unclear what, exactly, you’re saying. You seem to have said that Whites are displaying the flag as a response to Black racism, but when I ask you to clarify your comments, you switch to saying that not all of the people who display the flag are racist, and you don’t clarify your original position at all. Does that mean that the flag-wavers who are responding against Black racism are themselves racist? Because if you ask me, that’s what it sounds like when I ask you about the Confederate flag as a response to Black racism and you respond only by saying that not all Whites who display the flag are racist.”
I don’t see how I switched positions. First of all, I said only SOME whites display the flag as a result of black racism (in which case, yes, the person displaying it would probably be doing so with racist intentions, with the racism coming from both sides adding fuel to the fire). Here are my exact words: “You also bring up racism towards blacks as a reason that blacks don’t let go of the past, but maybe racism of blacks towards whites is a reason that some whites still display the confederate flag.”
“No? But you yourself said that it was, at least in part, a matter of race, since Blacks are, in your view, more likely to have connections to Black employers, and that counterbalances any effect by which Whites can get jobs through connections to White employers. Again, it’s hard having this conversation with you if I can’t figure out what you’re trying to say.”

You’re right. If I was being unclear, I should have said “A matter or race wouldn’t necessarily be considered when the “connections” take place, although it will exist in an incredibly simple and innocent form.”
“What is your point, though? Has anyone said that success was “impossible” for Blacks in the 1950’s? It seems to me that once again you’re fighting a straw man.”
As you responded to my statement: “Anyway, if they claim that it was impossible for blacks to succeed in the 50’s, I disagree.”

-In other words, I ask you what you make of the evidence which disagrees with you

I say that I feel it was possible for blacks to succeed in my statement, and you ask me how I feel about evidence that says otherwise. You strongly implied that the person who gave the evidence saying otherwise disagrees. Also, when you originally mentioned “Black Boy”, it was a direct response to my saying that it was possible for blacks to succeed in the 50’s. Why would you mention the book if it agreed with my statement? If I said “Mickey Mantle played for the Yankees”, would you say “Well, I believe that you should consult stat books from the 50’s and 60’s regarding your statemen.” Then, once I look it up and see again that he played for the Yankees, you say “Well I told you to look up those stats because, even though he did play for the Yankees, I wanted to remind you that he didn’t play for the minor league Dover Yankees?”
“Is that to say that you do, in fact, think that Blacks are dumber than Whites?”

Am I saying that blacks have less learning power than whites? No. Am I saying that if every white person who reached or passed the 10th grade in the U.S. took a general knowledge test such as the SAT, and every black who had reached or passed the 10th grade took the same test, the whites would most likely have a higher score. Just as Asians would most likely score higher than whites. Why is this so? Tough to say, but I would guess discipline and attitude.
“You look down on my people if they don’t talk or dress a certain way.”

People of all races are looked down upon for dressing and talking a certain way, and people of all races look down up them. The fact that you only refer to whites doing so seems a little racist itself, and it is definitely foolish.

“You pull us over before we have done any crime.”

See above.
“I don’t think most African Americans (“blacks” to you)”

Another person who feels that saying “black” isn’t PC. I laugh in your general direction…

" -call the person who made the statement racist
IMHO the last response is the easiest but the least helpful."

Exactly, and it seems to be the only thing done by most of those who disagree with me.

“Yes, I was being snide with you. You claim to like facts. This is why I questioned your timing. You chose not to chime in when Bababooey made the ridiculous statement that there are virtually no blacks in the rural South.”

He likes facts, therefore he knows every fact and can recall any fact at any time he wishes. He only knows how to use 10% of his brain, therefore he has racist tendencies.

“Bababooey admitted that he believes it, so he is a racist.”

I never did such a thing. Again, you are making up your own info to make your argument look superior. Again, you have failed. 0 for 2 now, and I doubt that you’ll end up batting .333.
"But blacks who graduate from college are paid less than whites who graduate from college. "

So what? Without screaming racism, just read what I’m saying with a totally objective mind. More whites go to colleges such as Harvard than blacks, right? Well if the average education of a white college graduate comes out to be higher than that of the average black college graduate, why shouldn’t the whites end up being payed more? If you want to support the argument you’re trying to make, give examples (with some respectable facts, maybe?) of black people replacing white people at the EXACT same posistion, and end up being payed less (excluding if the white had been given a raise due to time/experience at his position). Or give examples of the opposite, with whites replacing blacks at the same position and being payed more.
“As I have said, Baba is choosing to interpret this as meaning that blacks are dumber than whites. You do not speak out against him, but instead choose to argue with me because I called him on it. Curious.”

0 for 3. And I’d assume that he doesn’t speak out against me because I’ve maid reasonable, unbiased arguments that often favor whites or Asians over blacks, but doesn’t label me as racist just because my arguments are controversial. And I thank him for doing so.
"I don’t particularly care. I think talking about whether one person or another has a higher IQ is stupid. To sit around try to find IQ differences between races is ridiculous. "

That’s find, I agree that it’s difficult to do so. But if someone says that, from what they’ve observed, the IQ’s of one race exceed that of another, don’t start screaming racism or say that they’re wrong, just say it’s too hard to say.

[Ben]

If I might make a quick comment about the AA issue (I’m waiting for Bababooey’s reply before I say much else):

it seems to me that:

a) college dropout rates aren’t a good indicator of differences between races. If you were going to make a comparison of the intelligence of different “races,” then you’d have to have an unbiased sample. The population of college dropouts has already been heavily biased by the fact that all of them had to get into college in the first place. If Blacks drop out more readily than Whites, one obvious possibility is that colleges might be less able to select qualified Blacks, because Blacks who go to college have generally navigated a different school system than Whites have. For example, it might be that private school teachers are better able to assess the abilities of their students, and thus in writing recommendations they pre-select qualified students better than public school teachers do. (This is all entirely hypothetical, and meant only to point out that there are a lot of issues that could plausibly contribute to the final numbers.)

b) It looks like the real fact of the matter might be that Blacks who get admitted to college under AA are, if only by a small percentage, more likely to take six years to complete their degree than Whites are. This suggests to me that many of the AA systems currently in use may well be systems in which Blacks are qualified for college on the basis of innate ability, but are unprepared by their schooling. Thus they take an extra two years of classes in order to learn what their teachers should have taught them in high school, but, given the same classes that Whites get (ie 6 years of college or 2 years of high school plus 4 years of college) are able to perform equally well. If this is the case, then affirmative action is doing precisely what it was intended to do, and it is doing it well.

c) Most schools- at least Ivy League schools- have an affirmative action system which is meant to benefit mostly rich White students. As I understand, this affirmative action system was originally put in place as nothing more or less than a “grandfather clause” that would keep upwardly mobile minority students out. Do we have any statistics on how well these students do? George W. Bush, for example, did poorly in college, and I can’t imagine he would have gotten into Yale without affirmative action.

As a final note about “racial McCarthyism,” let me say that I didn’t infer that Bababooey was making a racist statement simply because he said Blacks don’t do as well as Whites in school. I inferred that he might be making a racist statement because of the context of his statement:

Originally posted by Bababooey**
I believe that you also maintain your point because “Maybe all of the higher ups are white”, and even a greater maybe, “Most of the higher ups in the company are white, and MAYBE it’s because of racism.” I would personally love to see the percentage of blacks that graduate from college, ratios of blacks to whites that do graduate from college, and the average GPA of blacks vs. the average GPA of whites after having graduated. Although it’s just a prediction, I’d bet that the results will give the main reason that a higher percentage of whites have well paying jobs than blacks.

**

In effect, BBB certainly appears to be saying that the reason Blacks don’t have high-paying jobs isn’t because of any extrinsic factos (broadly speaking, racism); it’s because of some sort of intrinsic factor (inferior genetics, inferior culture, etc.) But I want to make sure, so I asked BBB if I’ve interpreted him correctly.
The simple fact of the matter is that you have (perhaps somewhat ironically) accused archmichael and myself of being “racial McCarthyists” for calling Bababooey a racist when all he did was “point out unpleasant truths.” In reality, I didn’t even call him a racist. And, much more importantly, my inference was based purely on his argument, not on his supporting evidence. Contrary to your claims, I would have never thought him a racist simply for pointing out the facts.

-Ben

[archmichael]

I can wish, but I don’t hold out any hope that Baba will admit that he is a racist. I don’t think that you do either. He honestly believes everything that he says. He still maintains that there are not many blacks in the rural South, so I have no hope that he will recognize his own racism.

There are blatant racists and there are people who hold racial beliefs but do not consider themselves racists. Racism is when a person is not seen as an individual but as just a member of the group. The problem that I have with you is that you seem to think only the blatant racists can do harm. I believe that most racism is perpetrated by everyday people who hold on to some stereotypes. The other problem that I have with you is the assumption that people will only think these things, and not have it affect their everyday decisions. Most of the problems that we have is because this dynamic. He implied that blacks as a group are less intelligent than whites. If he ever gets a job hiring people, don’t you think that knowledge will affect his judgement when a black applicant walks in.

I agree with you. Statement of facts is not wrong, no matter how distasteful the fact. Statement of facts to support a racist agenda is wrong. Making a guess about a race is racist. Remember what Baba did. He didn’t mention a statement of fact. He just assumed that blacks had a lower GPA than whites. No research. Just a guess. This was disturbing enough for me. I recognized it for what it was, so did Ben and MrO. You chime in that his dumb racist based guess happened to be correct. I would not have been as pissed off if he mentioned a cite, which you validated. I hope you do understand the difference. If he had gone as far as to bet that a lot of blacks are criminals would have chimed in with the incarceration statistics? Or would you have had the good sense to recognize that he is spouting racist guesses and chosen not to support his agenda? It was the uninformed assumption that blacks do worse at school that clued us in that he is a racist.

If Ben and MrO both consider Baba a racist, are they considered racial McCarthyists? Yes

Is there no way to call a racist what he is, without being called a McCarthyist? I don’t mind being called that. However, I do not like the characterization that Baba is the victim here. A victim of our evil machinations. The implication that Baba did no wrong.

mike, I cannot understand on what basis you conclude that all the races are equal. To me, it seems quite plausible that Blacks are inherently smarter. I thought you and I agreed that it was impossible to separate genetic vs. cultural impacts on intelligence. So, your statement that the races are equal sounds like blind faith or craven political correctness. What is your support for believing that all the races are equal?

I thought about this a long time, and it is so obvious to me that I don’t know how to answer you. I guess it is partly faith that all the races are equal. I was raised to believe that all races are nothing more than humans that just look different. No race is better than another. No race is more evil than another. No race is smarter than another. I am assuming that you get most of your stat from “The Bell Curve”. If my memory serves me correctly Asians had an average IQ of 102, whites had an IQ of 100 and blacks had a average of 96. To you this might make a difference, but to me it only goes to prove that there is no real difference. Even if I were to believe the numbers, I can’t tell the difference while talking to someone who has an IQ of 102 or 98.

To sit around try to find IQ differences between races is ridiculous.
I agree, when we’re discussion individuals. E.g., Amalya Kearse, bridge expert and U.S. District Judge is brilliant, regardess of race.

However, tests can be useful when evaluating policy choices. E.g., suppose Blacks are paid less than Whites. This could be due to racism. On the other hand, it could be due to worse reading skills. In one case, we would need anti-racism programs; in the other case we would need better reading programs.

This is where your white naivete comes through. There is nothing to be gainsed from learning about the intellectual differences between races. Nothing. It is a lose/lose situation. Lets say that it can be proved that blacks are the dumbest race of all. What would it achieve. It would only give credence to the worst kinds of racism. People would say that anti-racism programs are not necessary. They would say that many blacks are not in corporate America not because of racism, but because they are slow as a group. Racism by way of superiority. Lets say that it can be proved that blacks are the smartest race of all. Once again blacks would lose. People would say why are we helping blacks go to college when they are the smartest of all. They would suffer racism by way of resentment.

Well Baba replied while I was composing my reply. December, I will ask you to consider one quote:

Am I saying that blacks have less learning power than whites? No. Am I saying that if every white person who reached or passed the 10th grade in the U.S. took a general knowledge test such as the SAT, and every black who had reached or passed the 10th grade took the same test, the whites would most likely have a higher score. Just as Asians would most likely score higher than whites. Why is this so? Tough to say, but I would guess discipline and attitude

Notice that this is not a statement of fact but a just a guess on his part. No studies. Just what he has observed. He doesn’t even consider the substandard education that blacks generally get. As far as the line:

Why is this so? Tough to say, but I would guess discipline and attitude

Since I am a McCarthyist, I will let you decide, but sounds to me like he just substituted dumb with lazy.