I just reread my post, and realized I was speaking for you both when I shouldn’t be.
Sorry about that.
**
One could argue that you’re going to keep saying that we think Southerners are all racists, in the hope that if you repeat it often enough, that will make it right. Could you provide some examples of these anti-Southern statements that you claim some of us have made?
**
D’oh!
**
As has already been pointed out, slavery was a key principle to the Confederacy. For that matter, to say that Nazism was “based solely on the fact (sic) that all other races are inferior” is a gross oversimplification.
**
What, IYO, is that different symbolism?
**
But the two situations are completely different. The Confederacy was founded in order to preserve slavery. Italy wasn’t founded in order to make war with the US. You yourself used that very argument to show that the Confederate flag doesn’t bear comparison to the Nazi flag! Can you see why I feel that you keep flip-flopping?
**
Since you’re new here, let me simply state that in Great Debates, if you make a statement- particularly an accusatory one- you’re expected to have the energy to back it up.
I did your job for you and made a quick skim of the thread up to the point where you said:
"It seems that most of you people who are being sensative towards the problems that blacks have are being very prejudiced towards the South, making yourselves hypocritical and basically making your argument look like a total joke. You imply that we are all redneck racists driving rusty 88’ Ford Silverados with Rebel Flags no the front (I live in Louisiana, and I only know of one person who fits this description, and I bet that most of you morons would assume that he’s white). "
I saw nothing whatsoever which would support those comments.
**
Your position was simply unclear. On some issues, it still is.
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Do you think that the behavior which you describe as Black racism might be motivated by White racism?
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“Innocent” how?
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Please answer the question. Why are you making such a big deal of the fact that it was not “impossible” for Blacks to succeed in the 1950’s?
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I’ve already explained this at length, but you clipped my explanation and ignored it. My point is that the reality of the matter was very different from your oversimplified statement that it wasn’t “impossible” for Blacks to succeed.
**
Could you elucidate further? In your opinion, why is it the case that Blacks have less “discipline and attitude” than Whites?
There are a few questions which you haven’t addressed. I’ll recap:
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Why should I assume that you are ignorant of Marcus Garvey or Richard Wright?
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Why did you raise the point that it wasn’t “impossible” for Blacks to succeed in the 1950’s? What were you trying to prove with that point?
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Where have people made anti-Southern statements in this thread?
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Thus far, you haven’t addressed (or even acknowledged) my argument regarding Garvey.
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“And so if a Black person could become middle class, that means that it’s not a big deal that they couldn’t become, say, aviators? I’m sorry if I’m putting words in your mouth, but it’s very hard for me to figure out what conclusion you’re trying to support.”
-Ben
“He still maintains that there are not many blacks in the rural South, so I have no hope that he will recognize his own racism.”
Regarding the areas of the rural south that I’ve been to, I’ve seen between zero and a handful of blacks. In these same areas, I’ve seen a pretty decent number of Confederate flags. I question why so many people would display a flag that’s sole purpose is to antagonize people who aren’t around. I still don’t understand what’s racist about that.
“He implied that blacks as a group are less intelligent than whites. If he ever gets a job hiring people, don’t you think that knowledge will affect his judgement when a black applicant walks in.”
Go fuck yourself. I’m not trying to piss off the mods here and get banned, but I’m not putting up with bullshit statements like this. I can live through you people saying that I have racist opinions, but saying that I’m going to go out of my way to actually supress the potential success of someone just because the black is way too far, even for someone who has yet to contribute much to the thread other than “BabaBooey is a racist”.
“No research. Just a guess. This was disturbing enough for me. I recognized it for what it was, so did Ben and MrO. You chime in that his dumb racist based guess happened to be correct.”
So making correct educated guesses are racist? I’ll be sure to start going to the most racist doctor I can find. I’d bet that Stephen Hawkins is smarter than myself. OH MY GOD, I MUST BE DESCRIMINATING AGAINST MYSELF! You’re 0 for 4 now, I think it’s time you hit the showers.
“I guess it is partly faith that all the races are equal.”
An educated guess without any facts to back it up…?
“white naivete”
What!? You’re saying that there’s a certain naivete inherent among all whites and by whites alone? I believe in the same post you said “Racism is when a person is not seen as an individual but as just a member of the group.” 0 for 5.
Whats the point of showing that BabaBooey is a racist?
I don’t think BabaBooey is a racist. Because whites, blacks, and asians are not races. If someone believed that everyone who had green eyes was inately superior they would not be a racist. Just wrong.
If one were to believe that ones skin tone constiutes a race then anyone who starts off with the statement “blacks are…” or “whites are…” is racist. Not only that no one here really knows what they mean when they say those statements. Because statistics don’t show the cutoff line between a black and a white person. Rather people whom could be considered either embrace stereotypes to show that they are “black” or “white” through clues such as hair style and the way they talk or act. I knew one kid in high school whom the whole class was uneasy being around for one year. Because they could not tell wether he was black or white and they felt that this was important because they were racists. Later on he started talking like a black person and everyone was happy because now they knew how to treat him.
There is no acceptable limit of racism before someone becomes a racist. Racism is not inherently bad either. It is inherently neutral like any other scientific theory. Current scientific findings and what people do with that theory is what gives racism such a bad name.
I agree with most of what you say Sterra. I too dream of a day when discussions about race are an anachronism. So we both want to get THERE, only how do we get there from HERE?
I guess there are two schools of thought on the matter. One says that talking about race, only perpetuates racism. That a policy of race blindness will eventually get rid of the problem. I tried that for a time, and maybe it didn’t give it a real chance. I can only tell you that on a visceral level, it felt wrong to me. Too passive. I think it is a philosophy that is easier for whites to adopt, than it is for minorities. I think that many minorities have tried to ignore it in the hopes of it going away, and I don’t think it worked to well for them either.
I am of the school of thought that says there must be open discussion between the races. I believe in fact that some of the problems arise out of race blindness. I think some white people have adopted a policy of race blindness out of good intentions. The race blind (for lack of a better term) have done a great job in their own interactions with minorities, but ironically I think it has also made them blind to the real discrimination that is perpetrated by the people who are not so race blind.
For all the back and forth between December and myself, I know that I have come to understand his position a lot more. I may be speaking out of turn, but I think that he understands my position a lot more as well.
When you say that white, black, and asian are not races, I think you have a good point. Scientifically speaking, there are not three races of humans; our differences are much more complicated than that. I was using the term “race” to refer loosely to skin color, though I know it isn’t really accurate. Still, I believe that intolerance or insensitivity toward others based on skin color is racism, at least in the common use of the term.
If that is what we mean when we say racism, then I cannot agree with the quote above. It is inherently bad, and I would add quotation marks around the word “scientific,” since any theory that holds that one race is superior or inferior is psuedo-science at best, and far too simplistic to be truly scientific.
Racism is one of the very, very few things in this world that I see as such a black/white issue. (No pun intended.) Rape and child abuse are others. On most controversial issues, though I might have an opinion, I can see good and bad: abortion, censorship, capital punishment, religion, home-schooling, etc. Even war, from some perspectives, can be seen as a “necessary evil.” (I don’t share that perspective, but I can understand it.)
But racism? Where are the good points of racism? Okay, it was “good” for the southern US economy, during the days of slavery. But if there is any good in racism from a humanitarian perspective, or even from a human perspective, I cannot find it. I dislike closed-mindedness as much as anything I can think of, but here I confess that unless someone can point out to me something good about racism, my mind will stay closed about this. Racism is bad.
Pssst: The Dukes of Hazard was just pretend!
Look, if you want to sling racist claims around, you better back them up.
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Bababooey, when you registered to post here, did you or did you not receive a set of rules? And did you or did you not read it? Because thus far you seem to show no idea of how to behave here. It only took you what- 20 posts to violate one of the big rules of the SDMB by stooping to namecalling outside the Pit?
Nobody is preventing you from starting a Pit thread to air your grievances, so don’t complain about how you’re stuck between risking being banned and “putting up with bullshit statements.”
-Ben
archmichael I think the problem with other than race blindness lends credence to the racists arguement. They can say to themselves “see those people are believe in race too” I also find no way to be consistent and discriminate based on race because race is so subjective in of itself.
MrO the good part of racism is that doctors don’t treat people with different skin colors as having the same chance of getting sunburned. The reason why most racism is bad is because it is wrong.
By simply taking the time to read the whole thread I have come to two concluions : one you need to be educated in that gray area of racism. A lot of people don’t consider themselves active racists. It is a fact. Now don’t go on about I’m about to label you such, but I don’t go around using simple terms as racist and such. If someone dosn’t like me I normaly assume it has to do with me not my race. I’m born and rasied in Hawaii, where race is not such a big issue here. But I know what it is to be feared by the typical white person that locks there car door as you walk by or won’t sit by you on the bus and other such nonsence. All of it stems form the slavery that european used to “power” his plantation for profit. you see rude hard stares and harrasment is what active racism is about. Everytime you go out and see some Black loittering around in a inner city neighborhood what do you think he’s doing? Dealing drugs? That’s what some people would think. If you were a cop and you saw a black man driving an red lambourgni would you check to see if the car was stolen? You just might. It’s not about going out of your way to single out Black men and women to hurt, harrass or demoralazie, it’s about what you think. And how you act on what you think.
Black people notice passive racism. And so do other oppressed peoples of the world. you don’t have to go out of your way to make someone feel unwelcomed. And to tell you the plain plum truth a lot whites do it to them. You see no one forgets anything if it’s shoved down there face constantly.
Combine this with misrepensentation in poor inner city neighboorhoods, schools that fall apart, rampant juvenille crime in schools, disruptive classrooms, and a whole host of problems you get poor blacks that aren’t intersted in improving themselves to get out of those neighborhoods and become at least middle class. Right now I live on minimum wage. And boy does it sucks. It’s not because I’m ignorant but Hawaii just doesn’t dole out entry level jobs in computer iformation field. Minimum wage is not enough to surrvive on even for your own self. I welcome you to try it for a year. it’s not pretty.
“One could argue that you’re going to keep saying that we think Southerners are all racists, in the hope that if you repeat it often enough, that will make it right. Could you provide some examples of these anti-Southern statements that you claim some of us have made?”
- Hastur: “I’ve experienced and seen the way black people are treated in the inner city as well as in the South. They may not be slaves anymore, but they are often treated as such.”
-Yourself: “Perhaps when rednecks quit putting the Confederate flag on their cars, T-shirts, and state flags?”
Rednecks putting the confederate flag on there state flag seems to me like your implying everyone in Mississippi is a redneck.
-Tomndebb: “The whole culture of “rednecks” and “poor white trash” has to do with the lowest group in the very class-stratiated society of the ante-bellum Southern U.S. finding among blacks a “class” that was lower than they”
I guess white trash only exists in the south?
-Vinnie Virginslayer: “I ask when will Southerners take down their rebel flags?”
Again, only southerners display Confederate flags.
And your statement that I keep bringing up the fact that northerners often look down on sourtherners is absurd. I’ve just gone through all of my posts, and I’ve brought it up once.
"What, IYO, is that different symbolism? "
Southern heritage, rebellion against the type of industrialization that took place in the north, a big screw you to those who dislike southerners, and one of the best reasons that was mentioned in the Confederate flag post, “Because you are pissed that the right of freedom of expression is only defended when it refers to expression of popular ideas.”
“But the two situations are completely different. The Confederacy was founded in order to preserve slavery. Italy wasn’t founded in order to make war with the US. You yourself used that very argument to show that the Confederate flag doesn’t bear comparison to the Nazi flag! Can you see why I feel that you keep flip-flopping?”
You’re right, it was a poor argument on my part. It still doesn’t mean that the Confederate flag doesn’t have other meanings, though.
“if you make a statement- particularly an accusatory one- you’re expected to have the energy to back it up.”
I usually would, but it seems that most people involved give their opinion, I give mine which often shows that the person’s previous opinion may be wrong, and then they just don’t bring it any further except for saying I’m a racist. I apoligize, as you are putting effort into it and I should do the same for you. Not to mention that this board is often incredibly slow, even with a cable connection, so I have little desire to wait through the constant errors to simply open a post.
“Do you think that the behavior which you describe as Black racism might be motivated by White racism?”
Probably. As I said in another post, there both just adding fuel to the fire, and I doubt that either of them will stop.
“‘Innocent’ how?”
Innocent as in, although race is a factor, it isn’t intended to be a factor. If a black manager hires his cousin for a job because of their relation, and a white guy who had applied for the job got angry because he felt the manager was racist, he would be foolish. It’s obvious that it wasn’t a matter of racism, it just happened to be that his cousin was black.
“Please answer the question. Why are you making such a big deal of the fact that it was not “impossible” for Blacks to succeed in the 1950’s?”
Because you keep bring it up.
“Could you elucidate further? In your opinion, why is it the case that Blacks have less “discipline and attitude” than Whites?”
I guessed that it was the case, I didn’t say it was. Again, if I were to guess, I would say a lot of impoverished blacks lose respect for everything, sometimes themselves. As for whites, a lot of the stupid ones generally don’t care about anything, pretty similarly to the stupid blacks I referred to. It seems some of the middle to upper middle class blacks (that I’ve gone to school with) share the same characteristics. As for why Asians appear to be on top educationally, they just seem to be generally very respectful, especially the religious types (which most of the ones I know seem to be).
“1. Why should I assume that you are ignorant of Marcus Garvey or Richard Wright?”
Who cares? I’ve already thanked you for assuming I wasn’t ignorant on the matter, what else do I have to say regarding the matter which has little to do with the overall debate at hand?
“2. Why did you raise the point that it wasn’t “impossible” for Blacks to succeed in the 1950’s? What were you trying to prove with that point?”
If I remember correctly, it was because someone said it was possible for my grandfather to do something with himself in the 50’s, but impossible for a black person to do the same.
“4. Thus far, you haven’t addressed (or even acknowledged) my argument regarding Garvey”
If you wonder why I even bring it being possible for blacks to succeed in the 50’s, why try to further the conversation? What is your argument regarding Garvey, that blacks had there businesses sabotaged? Was every black business sabotaged? Again, I never said it was easy for them, just possible.
- “And so if a Black person could become middle class, that means that it’s not a big deal that they couldn’t become, say, aviators? I’m sorry if I’m putting words in your mouth, but it’s very hard for me to figure out what conclusion you’re trying to support.”
That’s sad to hear that they couldn’t become aviators. But to my knowledge, they can do so today, so it’s a pointless debate.
“Pssst: The Dukes of Hazard was just pretend!”
I’ve never seen the Dukes of Hazard.
“Look, if you want to sling racist claims around, you better back them up.”
They weren’t racist claims, they were facts that I was willing to bet to be true, and was right. Are you related to archmichael?
“Nobody is preventing you from starting a Pit thread to air your grievances, so don’t complain about how you’re stuck between risking being banned and “putting up with bullshit statements.””
Well I feel that archmichael should have done the same with these racist accusations towards myself, allowing this thread to be used for those who actually want to have a serious debate.
if it wasn’t for Marcus a lot of blacks in the south would have never had gotten the pride and satisfaction of doing something agains the rampant racism in the 1920’s and 30’s .
Have you every heard of the black wall street? have you heard of what happened there? I don’t thinks so it’s bad memories of that which keep blacks that give blacks and
fuel and ammo to be angry about how things suck in our communities. It’s not only blacks it’s indians, and Hawaiians who feel the same way. Come to hawaii and talk to the locals… no love for whites and there conquroring ways.
December. I waited for some time, but it looks like you have grown tired of this discussion and moved on. However I and others are waiting for a final reply on your part.
You have judged myself and others of racial McCarthyism because we believed that Baba’s statements were racists. You asked for Baba for a clear statement of his position. He has stated that he is not a racist, but offered ‘clarifications’ such as:
Ben was more eloquent that I have been when he said:
I believe that everyone involved has clarified their points, and we are awaiting your ‘judgement’. If you don’t want to continue this long argument, a simple yes or no will suffice. Were you justified in calling me and others racial McCarthyists? You have made a serious charge against us. You can’t make these charges and choose not to continue participating in this discussion. So please, for the sake of closure yes or no.
I don’t expect a ‘no’, but if your answer is a ‘no’ when were you planning on offering the promised apologies?
If your answer is ‘yes’, we will have to agree to disagree and leave it at that.
*Originally posted by archmichael *
December, I and others are waiting for a final reply on your part.
Sorry, I didn’t mean to abandon the discussion in the middle. Let’s take Baba’s statement that you quoted. Does it prove he’s a racist?
Here are the points that I find in Baba’s statement:
[li] 1. He guesses that Whites outperform Blacks academically, on average.[]2. He guesses that the reason is cultural (“discipline and attitude”), rather than genetic []3. He suggests (in a post quoted below) that lower career success may be due more to lower academic performance than to racism 4. When pushed to explain the cultural difference, he speculates that it may be a result of poverty.[/li]
Which of these statements is racist, and why?
Statement #1 turns out to be essentially correct, although it’s not PC to talk about it. To call someone a racist because he makes true, but non-PC, statements would fall under my definition of RM.
Statement #2 is better than the alternative. That is, once one acknowledges the difference in average academic performance, how does one account for it? Wouldn’t it be worse to assume that the cause is genetic? (And, wouldn’t it be more comfortable to ignore the academic difference.)
Statement #3 deserves its own thread. I could see a strong case made on both sides. But, neither side repesents racism; it’s a question of determining the truth. As you may know, I think that academic performance has become a bigger problem than racism, and I blame it on the educational establishment, who IMHO have their heads you know where.
Statement #4 sounds crude, but any discussion of statement #3 would sound crude. You try explaining why one race has more discipline on average than another without violating PC. On balance, I consider BBB’s quote to be crude-sounding, but not necessarily evidence of racism.
**Ben was more eloquent that I have been when he said:
I believe that everyone involved has clarified their points, and we are awaiting your ‘judgement’.**
Clearly, BBB did NOT say that Blacks have inferior genetics. (At least not here.) Putting those words in his mouth looks like RM.
Now, for all I know, BBB may be another Simon Legree. But, I haven’t found a smoking gun in his posts here. Without such evidence, it’s improper to call him a racist IMHO. On the other hand, if you find a more clearly racist quote that I’ve overlooked, I’d be more than happy to see it. I might change my mind.
Let me add that today many college professors and administrators think it’s appropriate to accuse people of racism at the drop of a hat (i.e., at the utterance of a non-PC comment). So, if you and other posters disagree with me, you have lots of company.
I guess we’ll have to agree to disagree. I guess the only difference between us is where we draw the line for racism.
I forgot to address the point about the KKK and Aryan Nation. I did not intend to imply that you are a member of those organizations. I was trying to point out how dangerously loose your definition of racism is.
Once again, it is so obvious to me that I have a hard time explaining it to someone who doesn’t see it. Bababooey’s attempt at having a serious discussion about this topic has been nothing more than pushing his whole agenda. The is a discussion about when blacks will let the past go. The tone of all his posts have been to:
- Mitigate the suffering that blacks have suffered.
- Deny the prevalence and power of discrimination against blacks today
- Deny the existence of the long terms affects of racism.
- Equate racism and discrimination against whites with racism and discrimination against blacks
See you at the next discussion about race.
"The tone of all his posts have been to:
- Mitigate the suffering that blacks have suffered.
- Deny the prevalence and power of discrimination against blacks today
- Deny the existence of the long terms affects of racism.
- Equate racism and discrimination against whites with racism and discrimination against blacks"
Assuming those were the only tones of my posts, I would still have 3 more than you do.
'When will the Blacks let the past go?"
Never. Not so long as they can use it for an excuse to blame their own failings, insecurities and hostilities on and as well as a way to leverage special treatment from Whites who feel guilty about what long dead people of their color did to it all them. It is also a real good excuse to develop oddball racial fads that set them aside from other races to build up their chronically diminished self images.
I mean, what other ex-slave race ever raised ghetto hand-me-downs to a fashion statement and poor language into a dialect that is virtually a language of it’s own and then demand to keep it?
So long as they keep talking about slavery and hating Whites, it keeps them angry and occupied and they don’t have time to start self correcting themselves. In history, everyone at one time or another was enslaved by everyone else and when freed, they shrugged and joined society and later, went on to probably enslave some other folks themselves.
They did not bitch about their past treatment to everyone who would listen for 200 years or so and become so antisocial that they mainly generated their own problems, which they blamed on their previous ‘masters’.
How long should it take for blacks to get over the effects of slavery? How long does it take for a group of people to overcome high levels illiteracy and poverty? I think that they have done a remarkable job considering all the factors against them. You seem to think they haven’t done much, ignoring segregation.
Two points. The first is that when you take into account segregation, black people don’t have to look for “long dead people” to find things they can rightfully complain about. The second is that you are walking a dangerous line in taking the beliefs of a small minority, and attributing them to every black person. There are some who blame all their problems, but this is hardly the view of the typical black person.
Again to my second point, just as not every white person is a overall wearing slack-jawed yokel like Cletus (the Simpsons), not every black person is a ebonics speaking, FUBU wearing gang-banger.
[weary sigh…]
At the risk of resuscitating this conversation, Neon, have you in fact read the entire thread? All the points you raise have been addressed very cogently.
The majority of posters here seem to agree that black Americans, and other minority groups as well, do in fact have plenty to complain about. Yes, progress is being made, in spite of the efforts of people who continue to blame the black race for its own problems. But black people still walk a path that is much rockier and steeper than the one white people walk. Yes, even rockier and steeper, sociologically speaking, than the one walked by my dirt-poor, illiterate, share-cropper grandfather, who was white.
One poster who seemed to agree with your sentiments got angry and declared the conversation over, without having made a single compelling point. Another is still desperately flailing away, posting what almost seems to be random key-strokes, judging by their relevance to the OP. Are you going to offer something of substance to support your harsh criticism of black Americans, or will your arguments also be characterized by thinly-veiled insecurity and sublimated guilt? Can you tell us exactly what choices were available to black Americans of even one or two generations ago? If you are alert enough to see that there were hardly any, can you not see that the present is a direct result of that unpleasant past?
As long as racists still exist, I don’t want to see the conversation end. It’s too important to just let it slide. But today I’m tired; I’ve been teaching all day and I’m not sure I have the patience to try to impart to you a sense of history and social responsibility. But don’t feel too insecure, racists–you still pretty much run the country, and the world. You’re just not very well represented on this message board.
[meekest possible voice]Uh, I seem to have triple-posted. I honestly don’t know how I did that. Could a mod be a pal and delete a couple of those?[/meekest possible voice]