When will blacks let the past go?

[tomndebb]

and poor language into a dialect that is virtually a language of it’s own and then demand to keep it?

On a site dedicated to fighting ignorance, this is wholly out of place.

You are wrong on how the AAVE dialect developed.
You are wrong about why the AAVE dialect developed.
You are wrong regarding your fatuous claim that it is “poor language.”

The rest of your post is also filled with wild assertions that you could never support, but which might fall into the category of “perception,” but your remark on language is simply wrong.

Dialects develop when any group is separated from another group. We tend to accept the dialects that have come about through geographic separation. It is easier (for those who look for insults to hurl) to ignore or deny social separations.

In addition, while a certain number of people do want AAVE to be recognized as a legitimate language (to prevent ignorant statements such as yours) there is no great movement throughout the black community to have AAVE somehow forced onto the larger population. The overwhelming number of blacks recognize that, to get ahead in the U.S., they will need to speak “'Mer’can” and they do so, simply because that is the common tongue. Your insinuation that the entire black community wants to go off and speak AAVE (or force schools and employers to accept reports or memoes in AAVE) is a fabrication.

[december]

*Originally posted by archmichael *
**The tone of all his posts have been to:

1. Mitigate the suffering that blacks have suffered.
2. Deny the prevalence and power of discrimination against blacks today
3. Deny the existence of the long terms affects of racism.
4. Equate racism and discrimination against whites with racism and discrimination against blacks
   **

Fairly spoken, mike.

I think #2 is the key. Discrimination is the only politically correct explanation of differences in success. However, IMHO focusing too much on racism is a mistake, because it’s not the the area that can produce progress.

[Kiljoy001]

It’s not racists that rule the world, but societies perceptions of how others that are different form what race you are that rule it. Half of the world’s conflicts around the world are about ethnic backgrounds that reach into antiquity! Blacks are no different. I don’t always blame whites ( espesicaly because in Hawaii whites really don’t run things that much anymore…) I tend to blame myself for my own failures ( barring the poor education I recived in the Hawaii Public School system but that’s another matter ).But it’s still hard on to deal with life’s little problems when somebody’s giving you a hard time because what you look like let alone just because your ( insert any downtroden race here). As for the guy who said that slave just joined society… well it’s kinda hard when your society was taken away from you. How do you get ahead when the people in power at the time don’t even accept you as there equal but someone beneath them? It’s hard. So hard that you have to form your own society and culture that is influenced but not the same as the people who hold you down and back. How may of you who post on this board can truthfully say that you think black culture ( or your idea it) is a good influence is something that should be shared with all cultures? I bet not many. Evenmore so, what do you think blacks think about people who try to how them back a nd refuse the total equity in society? I beg the question to be answered!

[Kiljoy001]

BBB’s ideas about blacks are form what the media feeds him. I truly doubt that he has ever really gotten to know anyone poor and black and the hardships that beset that person.

[SpaceGhostofArrakis]

If the Black population really want’s “restitution” for slavery, why don’t they sue ** Loyd’s of London**? that was the firm that actually financed quite a bit of the “slave factories” on the west African coast.

What, do they think that the North American Planters were the ones who started bringing them over? They were “content” with the Native American slave population.

Blame the Dutch.

[Biggirl]

*Originally posted by SpaceGhostofArrakis *
**
Blame the Dutch. **

I knew Coldyclogs had something to do with this.
Just for the record, in this thread I don’t think a single actual black person thought reperation is a good or workable idea.

[SpaceGhostofArrakis]

Oh yeah, the Dutch can be blamed for a lot, they are very crafty…
But yeah, I wonder why no one has said “Hey! Let’s sue Loyd’s of London!”

[lucwarm]

*Originally posted by Neon Frying Pan *
**
Never. Not so long as they can use it for an excuse to blame their own failings, insecurities and hostilities on and as well as a way to leverage special treatment from Whites who feel guilty about what long dead people of their color did to it all them. It is also a real good excuse to develop oddball racial fads that set them aside from other races to build up their chronically diminished self images.

**

A little too hackneyed to really get people steamed.

I give it 5.0 on the T-meter.

|-----x-----|

[Kiljoy001]

becasue we have tried long ago and nobody has tried since…

[Ben]

*Originally posted by BabaBooey *
**- Hastur: “I’ve experienced and seen the way black people are treated in the inner city as well as in the South. They may not be slaves anymore, but they are often treated as such.”

**

All Hastur is saying is that Blacks are treated like slaves in the South. How does that equate to your original claim, that “You imply that we are all redneck racists driving rusty 88’ Ford Silverados with Rebel Flags no the front”?

Do you deny that racism is worse in the South than in the North? I’ve never seen the KKK lined up along Main St. soliciting donations in the North. If I had, I imagine that there would have been some protesters.

**
-Yourself: “Perhaps when rednecks quit putting the Confederate flag on their cars, T-shirts, and state flags?”
Rednecks putting the confederate flag on there state flag seems to me like your implying everyone in Mississippi is a redneck.

**

Funny, I wasn’t aware that everyone in Mississippi supported putting the Confederate flag on the state flag. For that matter, I wasn’t aware that all of those who supported it were rednecks.

[/QUOTE]
**
-Tomndebb: “The whole culture of “rednecks” and “poor white trash” has to do with the lowest group in the very class-stratiated society of the ante-bellum Southern U.S. finding among blacks a “class” that was lower than they”
I guess white trash only exists in the south?

[/QUOTE]
**

Tomndebb, do you feel that “white trash” exists only in the South, or did you assume that the context would make it clear that you were only speaking of a particular aspect of Southern culture?

And even if they were assuming that “white trash” existed only in the South, how would that necessarily support your original claim that Tomndebb thinks all Southerners are rednecks?

**
-Vinnie Virginslayer: “I ask when will Southerners take down their rebel flags?”
Again, only southerners display Confederate flags.

**

How does that support your claim that Vinnie said that all Southerners fly rebel flags? Bear in mind that in his post, Vinnie was specifically speaking about the Civil Rights Era, so it’s natural that he should specifically speak of flags in the South.

**
And your statement that I keep bringing up the fact that northerners often look down on sourtherners is absurd. I’ve just gone through all of my posts, and I’ve brought it up once.

**

“It seems that most of you people who are being sensative towards the problems that blacks have are being very prejudiced towards the South, making yourselves hypocritical and basically making your argument look like a total joke. You imply that we are all redneck racists driving rusty 88’ Ford Silverados with Rebel Flags no the front (I live in Louisiana, and I only know of one person who fits this description, and I bet that most of you morons would assume that he’s white).”

"I’m sorry, it’s just that two things that really get my panties in a bunch are liberals and hypocrites, and there seems to be a lot of those around here. When I said “most of you morons”, I wasn’t refering to most everyone viewing this post, but most of the people who stereotype southerners. It seems that not only do a lot of blacks have problems letting go of the past, but so do a lot of northerners. "

“And if the Confederate flag is ONLY about antagonizing blacks, as you say it is, why would people in the rural south, where there are practically no blacks, display the Confederate flag?”

Remember that the latter is a response to my merely asking you for a clarification of your statements: I asked whether you felt that Whites were using the flag to antagonize Blacks, and you shot back with the above reply. It seems to me that your response clearly stemmed from your belief that I had anti-Southern prejudices.

**
You’re right, it was a poor argument on my part. It still doesn’t mean that the Confederate flag doesn’t have other meanings, though.

**

If Mississippi decided to put a swastika on its flag tomorrow, would you be arguing that Jews shouldn’t find that offensive?

**
Not to mention that this board is often incredibly slow, even with a cable connection, so I have little desire to wait through the constant errors to simply open a post.

**

In the future I suggest that you not make claims you’re not prepared to back up- particularly if they’re accusatory in nature.

**
Probably. As I said in another post, there both just adding fuel to the fire, and I doubt that either of them will stop.

**

You also stated earlier that you aren’t trying to say that Black racism pushes Whites into racism. Are you saying, then, that racist Whites wouldn’t display the flag so much if there were no Black racism?

**
“Please answer the question. Why are you making such a big deal of the fact that it was not “impossible” for Blacks to succeed in the 1950’s?”

Because you keep bring it up.

**

I keep bringing it up because you won’t give me a straightforward answer. The fact is that you’ve been adversarial and insulting from the moment you’ve entered the thread, and for all your complains about how poorly you’ve been treated, you’ve generally gotten a lot more slack than you probably deserve.

**
It seems some of the middle to upper middle class blacks (that I’ve gone to school with) share the same characteristics.

**

You mean that they don’t care about anything, just like the stupid ones?

**
As for why Asians appear to be on top educationally, they just seem to be generally very respectful, especially the religious types (which most of the ones I know seem to be).

**

Why do you feel that being “respectful” affects academic performance?

**
“1. Why should I assume that you are ignorant of Marcus Garvey or Richard Wright?”

Who cares? I’ve already thanked you for assuming I wasn’t ignorant on the matter, what else do I have to say regarding the matter which has little to do with the overall debate at hand?

**

You don’t have to say anything at all. I’m just curious as to why you made such a comment. For example,

1. should I assume that you, being White, wouldn’t have studied “Black” subjects?

2. Did you feel that Garvey and Wright were obscure and insignificant?

3. Did you feel that I should assume that a Southerner who loves Silverados won’t know anything about history or literature?

**
“2. Why did you raise the point that it wasn’t “impossible” for Blacks to succeed in the 1950’s? What were you trying to prove with that point?”

If I remember correctly, it was because someone said it was possible for my grandfather to do something with himself in the 50’s, but impossible for a black person to do the same.

**

Your memory is rather selective:

“Not to mention that a lot of people feel that the blacks haven’t had the time to recover since the days of slavery and that’s why they deserve reparations. Well it took my grandfather about 20 years to go from being dirt poor to living comfortably, and another 25 years to go from living comfortably to having about $1 million to his name. So why is racism/segragation/slavery blamed by so many as the reason that a large number of blacks are poor?”

For all your evasiveness, the implication of your claims about “impossibility” is clear: all your arguments about how it wasn’t “impossible” for Blacks to succeed in your grandfather’s time ultimately are in support of your argument that racism is not the reason why a large number of Blacks are poor today. I’m unable to find anyone who stated that it was “impossible” for Blacks to succeed in the '50s; as I pointed out before, you’re just using a straw man argument, and have been since the beginning.

**
If you wonder why I even bring it being possible for blacks to succeed in the 50’s, why try to further the conversation?

**

Perhaps because I want to understand your opinion, despite the hostile, insulting, and evasive behavior which you’ve shown thus far?

**
What is your argument regarding Garvey, that blacks had there businesses sabotaged? Was every black business sabotaged? Again, I never said it was easy for them, just possible.

**

If you don’t understand my argument, then quote the specific portions that you find unclear. I’ve already addressed the questions you raise above.

**
5. “And so if a Black person could become middle class, that means that it’s not a big deal that they couldn’t become, say, aviators? I’m sorry if I’m putting words in your mouth, but it’s very hard for me to figure out what conclusion you’re trying to support.”

That’s sad to hear that they couldn’t become aviators. But to my knowledge, they can do so today, so it’s a pointless debate.

**

That’s not playing fair, Bababooey. Don’t argue a point and then claim that the other guy is addressing a pointless issue when he disagrees with you.

**
“Nobody is preventing you from starting a Pit thread to air your grievances, so don’t complain about how you’re stuck between risking being banned and “putting up with bullshit statements.””

Well I feel that archmichael should have done the same with these racist accusations towards myself, allowing this thread to be used for those who actually want to have a serious debate.

**

So? Don’t discuss his accusations here and then complain that they shouldn’t be discussed here! And most of all, don’t complain that you’re afraid your comments will get you kicked off when all you have to do is start a Pit thread and then you can freely engage in namecalling and profanity, if that’s what you desire.

Incidentally, you still haven’t addressed affirmative action for rich people. Do you feel that that hurts Black people?

-Ben

[Ben]

If I might ask another question, Bababooey:

You’ve indicated both here and in the “Are Liberals smarter?” thread that you believe that the only reason for unemployment is laziness. If that’s the case, then what do you make of the effect of the prime rate on unemployment?

-Ben

[tomndebb]

BabaBooey (quoting me, then replying):

-Tomndebb: “The whole culture of “rednecks” and “poor white trash” has to do with the lowest group in the very class-stratiated society of the ante-bellum Southern U.S. finding among blacks a “class” that was lower than they”
I guess white trash only exists in the south?

Ben

Tomndebb, do you feel that “white trash” exists only in the South, or did you assume that the context would make it clear that you were only speaking of a particular aspect of Southern culture?

Well, I figured that my specific ante-bellum reference had put the statement in its context. The phrase (poor) white trash originated as a racist-context reference to the poorest of Southerners who were considered (in the class-conscious ante-bellum society) to be only slightly better than the “colored.”

I, personally, do not believe that a group of people exists who can be legitimately identified as trash. (Individuals are another story, of course.) Still, the phrase exists and it has a history and a context.

The post from which my quote was taken was specifically directed to the idea of a class-stratified society and the way in which people look down on others, even when they, themselves, are scorned. The ante-bellum South placed the poorest whites in a special category (trash) and after the Civil War, those poor whites, rather than joining with the oppressed blacks to demand better justice for all, maintained that “at least they weren’t black.” “Redneck,” of course, refers to the sharecroppers who could get no better position than the freed blacks (and got red necks hoeing the weeds from their fields). Both the terms white trash and redneck are pejoratives. Their use reflects two prejudicial behaviors: In the South, they were the group whose only “good” feature was that they were not black; in current culture, they indicate a general association prevalent among many Northeners of poor and South to bad education and poor work habits (probably laced with racism).

A recognition of how the terms are used is not an endorsement of those terms.

Taking my statement out of context to make a different point is not a valid use of my words.

[Lemur866]

Listen, trying to prove that BBB is racist is not helpful, whether he is or is not a racist. Do you think he’s going to change his mind if you prove to your own satisfaction that he is a racist? Do you think people reading this are going to change their minds because you believe he is a racist?

If BBB is a racist, then so is 90% of the United States. You all might feel that the average american is a bigot, but I disagree. BBB views are pretty consistent with what the average person on the street thinks.

Ben, I have no idea where you are going with this Marcus Garvey thing? Are you trying to prove that BBB is ignorant because he never heard of him? What would that prove? If you have a point about it, I suggest you finally make it, instead of trying to trap him into making a foolish statement.

I want people to figure out what their purpose of arguing here is. Is it to pat themselves on the back that BBB is after all a racist? Is it to change his mind? Is it to educate him?

BBB’s biggest failing is that he doesn’t have a lot of appreciation for the subtle ways racism and predjudice can work. That doesn’t make him a racist.

Oh, one more thing. I disagree with the notion that white people as a class benefit from racism. Every time I don’t get the best doctor, or the best policeman, or the best firefighter, or the best accountant because of racism I am harmed by racism, not benefitted. Every time our economy is weakened, every time we collect a little bit less in taxes, every time our military readiness is compromised then I am not benefitted. When black people are held back by racism I don’t benefit, I am harmed!

Now, I agree that the person actually being discriminated against is harmed more than I might be. Looked at one way, we might say that since I am harmed less by racism then I “benefit” from racism. But that is only when it is looked at in relative terms…the farther down black people are held, the better off I am. I hold that since I am poorer in absolute terms, then I am harmed by racism even when it isn’t directed at me.

[MrO]

Originally posted by Lemur866 *
**
I want people to figure out what their purpose of arguing here is. Is it to pat themselves on the back that BBB is after all a racist? Is it to change his mind? Is it to educate him?*

Speaking for myself, the answer to the first question is no. To the third question, yes; to the second, well, yes, I hope that someday these little bits of education will add up enough to change his mind. It has happened before.

BBB’s biggest failing is that he doesn’t have a lot of appreciation for the subtle ways racism and predjudice can work. That doesn’t make him a racist.

I would say that it makes him an unintentional racist, an accidental racist. Probably less culpable than the guys in the pointy white hoods, but still hurtful. It’s a complicated world, and I think we have some responsibility to develop an appreciation for these things. Or at least, I want us to.

Oh, one more thing. I disagree with the notion that white people as a class benefit from racism. . . .When black people are held back by racism I don’t benefit, I am harmed! . . . .I hold that since I am poorer in absolute terms, then I am harmed by racism even when it isn’t directed at me.

Agreed. The white racists who continue to keep minorities down probably believe that they are helping themselves, and in relative terms, they might sometimes be. But in absolute terms, of course, they are hurting all of us. Especially the minorities, but all of us.

I think I hear John Donne’s Meditation 17 here: “If a clod be washed away by the sea, Europe is the less, as well as if a promontory were, as well as if a manor of thy friend’s or of thine own were. . . .and therefore never send to know for whom the bell tolls; it tolls for thee.”

[joebob156]

The Civil War had nothing to do with racism at all. It was about slavery. VERY BIG DIFFERENCE!! Southern folk were pissed about something so they broke away from the Union. Lots of other issues that i dont remember were invoved, but slavery was actuay a rather small issue, if i recall correctly. DAMNIT MY “l” KEY IS BROKEN. dang…anyway The Confederates didnt see savery as some sort of cruel hatred of anther race, they looked at it the way looked at it the way we do pets. Bad analogy, but it’ll do. In fact, most people in the Confederate States were “friendly” to there slaves, but that doesnt constitute them owning another human being. They just THOUGHT, they ASSUMED they needed the work…lazy ang bums…Few people know this, but racism wasnt the cause of slavery, slavery was the cause of racism. The Europeans didn’t show up on Africa’s northern shores with their fancy boats and say “What the hell? These people are black! LETS ENSLAVE THEM HAHAHAHAHAHA!” Most absolutely not! They said “how the hell are we gonna build a whole god damned expansion of a nation with 3 guys, 15 sick old ladies, and 10,000 corpses!? Oh hey, whadayaknow! Theres some people overthere, they can build it for us!” Obviously, they didn’t take into consideration the African people’s ENTIRE LIVES when they did this, but whatever. You folks get my point?

[joebob156]

I’m a “southerner” as so you enjoy calling it, and I have yet to see a Confederate flag. I dont know where you people get your news, but the Southern United States is not a bunch of Silverado drivin’ hicks with 40 acres and “a hankerin’ for ma’s stew”. Ok? If any of you people have ever been south of Virginia, then you would know that an extreme few support hate group Ku Klux Klan openly. And furthermore, I have never seen a black man complain about a damn thing. They seem proud of there past and don’t give a damn bout what I or anyone else thinks, and I feel the same exact way. Black folks seem pretty in control of there llives to me. But to the point where they dont CARE about the “past”, that is sad. When I was a kid in school, and we would learn about the Civil War, some of my back friends would just sit their and snicker. I am very truly wounded by that. I won’t “whine” on my post, thoug.

[tomndebb]

Theres some people overthere, they can build it for us!" Obviously, they didn’t take into consideration the African people’s ENTIRE LIVES when they did this, but whatever.

And ignoring what one does to an entire people’s entire lives based on the color of their skin is different than racism in what way?

The laws in a number of (not all) slave-holding states were that black skin equalled a slave. Freedmen had to carry papers showing that they had been freed in order to not be simply “retaken” and sold, based on the color of their skin.

I’m not sure how you view that, but that easily fits into my definition of slavery.

Racism does not have to include lynchings and cross-burnings. A simple denial of rights and a disdainful treatment of a person based on appearances is quite adequate to demonstrate racism.

[archmichael]

Lemur866: I believe that there is a big problem in the race relations issue. The problem is the debate over whether a problem exists. There is one group of people who say that it is 2001, and racism and discrimination is inconsequential. There is another group that says the problem still exists. These view tend to follow racial lines. Whites tend to be part of the first group, and blacks tend to be part of the second group. I believe that most white people do believe that racism and discrimination is non-existant, which is why blacks are so often categorized as over-reacting or whining when they complain about race issues.

We seem to agree that the typical American believes stereotypes similar to the ones held by BBB. You don’t see this as being as being racist, and I think this is part of the big problem that I mentioned. I believe that people who believe such stereotypes are racists, and part of the continuing problems with racism and discrimination. As I have mentioned, I believe that most of the racism and discrimination isn’t perpetrated by the rabid racists but by the average joe who holds racists beliefs. The cop who feels justified in stopping a black person driving a nice car, because of the higher incarceration rates of blacks. The HR manager who assumes that a black college graduate has a lower GPA than a white college graduate, and passes over that applicant. The landlord who is hesitant to rent to a black couple because they’ll probably play loud rap music late into the night. Now all of these people are a lot better than the cops who used to frame blacks for crimes, HR managers who used to not even have an interview with a black applicant, and landlord who didn’t even take applications from black couples; however it is still hurtful. It is a lesser shade of evil, but evil none the less.

I believe that it needs to be tackled head on. A passive approach would have never brought about the Civil Rights Movement, and I don’t think a passive approach will solve the racism that exists now. I am curious to know what solutions you advocate. Should people have not argued with BBB because the chances of changing his mind were slim? Should we leave him alone and hope that he stumbles upon the truth himself? I don’t think anyone has told him prior to this debate, that the beliefs he holds are racist. If he is a good-hearted person, he will re-evaluate his views on black people. Every person who chimes in and says that his views is not racist, give him more reason to hold onto his beliefs

[BabaBooey]

“All Hastur is saying is that Blacks are treated like slaves in the South. How does that equate to your original claim, that “You imply that we are all redneck racists driving rusty 88’ Ford Silverados with Rebel Flags no the front”?”

First of all, how should I interpret “treated like slaves”? I live in the south. If I go for an evening drive, should I expect to see a bunch of black people working in cotton fields surrounding a plantation, being paid nothing? Second, if by “treated like slaves” you mean that blacks are treated in a racist manner, then I feel that you are making a generalization by saying that “blacks are treated like slaves” rather than “some blacks are…” Also, I feel that you are being very stereotypical by bringing up the fact that there’s racism in the South and totally avoiding the north. Doing so isn’t similar to saying “Racism is worse in the south”, it’s like saying “Racism only exists in the south.”

“Funny, I wasn’t aware that everyone in Mississippi supported putting the Confederate flag on the state flag. For that matter, I wasn’t aware that all of those who supported it were rednecks.”

Well it seemed to me that you were implying such…

“If Mississippi decided to put a swastika on its flag tomorrow, would you be arguing that Jews shouldn’t find that offensive?”

How many times do I have to say that I feel that there are many differences between the Nazi flag and the Confederate flag?

“In the future I suggest that you not make claims you’re not prepared to back up- particularly if they’re accusatory in nature.”

Thanks, but I heard you the first time.

“You also stated earlier that you aren’t trying to say that Black racism pushes Whites into racism. Are you saying, then, that racist Whites wouldn’t display the flag so much if there were no Black racism?”

If black’s racism towards whites ended immediately, I don’t think that too many whites would stop displaying the flag immediately. I do feel, however, that the number of whites who do display the flag for racist purpose would die out a lot quicker than it would if blacks continue to be racist, but it would still take several generations for it to happen.

“I keep bringing it up because you won’t give me a straightforward answer. The fact is that you’ve been adversarial and insulting from the moment you’ve entered the thread, and for all your complains about how poorly you’ve been treated, you’ve generally gotten a lot more slack than you probably deserve.”

What answer are you looking for? I still don’t know what the question is regarding this matter, or where you’re trying to go with the point. And I don’t believe that I complained about how everyone was treating me, just how arcmichael was and the few others who continuously called me a racist were. And I wouldn’t expect slack to result from doing so.

“You mean that they don’t care about anything, just like the stupid ones?”

Well I wouldn’t say that the one’s that I’ve known didn’t care about anything, but they didn’t care about as much as I feel they should.

“Why do you feel that being “respectful” affects academic performance?”

I feel that if you respect what a good education can do for you, you would do your best to get one. I should have been clearer on that…
"You don’t have to say anything at all. I’m just curious as to why you made such a comment. For example,

1. should I assume that you, being White, wouldn’t have studied “Black” subjects?

2. Did you feel that Garvey and Wright were obscure and insignificant?

3. Did you feel that I should assume that a Southerner who loves Silverados won’t know anything about history or literature?"

4. No

5. No

6. I would hope not.

“I’m unable to find anyone who stated that it was “impossible” for Blacks to succeed in the '50s; as I pointed out before, you’re just using a straw man argument, and have been since the beginning.”

Well you seemed to disagree with your reference to the Garvey/Wright books. I made up that dumbass Mickey Mantle situation to show you how I interpreted the reference…

“If you don’t understand my argument, then quote the specific portions that you find unclear. I’ve already addressed the questions you raise above.”

What’s the point. If you didn’t bring up the Garvey/Wright books to give me the impression that it WAS impossible for blacks to succeed in the 50’s, then I don’t know the reason of its existance. It would be like posting your opinions in Spanish and telling me (in English) to quote whatever I don’t understand clearly.

“That’s not playing fair, Bababooey. Don’t argue a point and then claim that the other guy is addressing a pointless issue when he disagrees with you.”

I’m sorry, I didn’t mean to say that it’s a pointless debate in general, but I feel that it’s a pointless debate regarding “When will blacks let the past go?”, although a lot of other things in this post are as well.

“So? Don’t discuss his accusations here and then complain that they shouldn’t be discussed here!”

I would have never even brought up his accusations being in another section of this website if you hadn’t told me that mine should be as well.

“Incidentally, you still haven’t addressed affirmative action for rich people. Do you feel that that hurts Black people?”

I wasn’t aware that affirmative action exists for rich people. I’m against it if it does, and yes, I would assume it wouldn’t be very beneficial to poor or middle class blacks, but it’s not like it would help poor or middle class whites either.

“You’ve indicated both here and in the “Are Liberals smarter?” thread that you believe that the only reason for unemployment is laziness. If that’s the case, then what do you make of the effect of the prime rate on unemployment?”

I don’t understand “the prime rate on unemployment.”

“The post from which my quote was taken was specifically directed to the idea of a class-stratified society and the way in which people look down on others, even when they, themselves, are scorned. The ante-bellum South placed the poorest whites in a special category (trash) and after the Civil War, those poor whites, rather than joining with the oppressed blacks to demand better justice for all, maintained that “at least they weren’t black.” “Redneck,” of course, refers to the sharecroppers who could get no better position than the freed blacks (and got red necks hoeing the weeds from their fields). Both the terms white trash and redneck are pejoratives. Their use reflects two prejudicial behaviors: In the South, they were the group whose only “good” feature was that they were not black; in current culture, they indicate a general association prevalent among many Northeners of poor and South to bad education and poor work habits (probably laced with racism).”

Well the meaning of those words then and the meaning of them now aren’t very similar, are they? I highly doubt anyone calling someone a redneck has any intent to be racist towards blacks.

“Ben, I have no idea where you are going with this Marcus Garvey thing”

Good, I thought I was the only person missing something.

“yes, I hope that someday these little bits of education will add up enough to change his mind.”

You want to change my mind? So then you would prefer that I become a racist?

[december]

*Originally posted by archmichael *
** I believe that there is a big problem in the race relations issue. The problem is the debate over whether a problem exists. There is one group of people who say that it is 2001, and racism and discrimination is inconsequential. There is another group that says the problem still exists. These view tend to follow racial lines. Whites tend to be part of the first group, and blacks tend to be part of the second group. I believe that most white people do believe that racism and discrimination is non-existant, which is why blacks are so often categorized as over-reacting or whining when they complain about race issues. [snip]

I believe that it needs to be tackled head on. A passive approach would have never brought about the Civil Rights Movement, and I don’t think a passive approach will solve the racism that exists now. I am curious to know what solutions you advocate. **

Mike IMHO it’s valuable to separate the problem from the solution. Take the example of my father. He came to this country from Poland at the age of 10 in 1920, with no money and not speaking English. He had no way to hold on to the past, nor could there be any expectation that the US owed him reparations for harm done to his people in Europe. And, there was no question that anti-Semitism was rampant.

He had no choice but to accept the world as it was. He got a job in the garment industry, where Jews could be hired. He eventually rose to management. I can say with all my heart how lucky my sisters and I are that he let the past go, and looked toward the future.

You argue that considerable racism exists today. I don’t know how much racism there is, but I do believe that at this time, too much focus on it is counter-productive. I fully agree with your statement, “A passive approach would have never brought about the Civil Rights Movement,” but times have changed. During the Civil Rights era, we had a situation where, [li]Blacks couldn’t vote in the South; []Jim Crow affected most aspects of life, including transportation, housing, employments, etc.[]Most businesses that hired Blacks automatically put them into low-level, dead-end jobs []Major league baseball wouldn’t even let Blacks play until 1948 IIRC.[/li]
Today, these problems are essentially solved. E.g. [li]A larger percentage of Blacks than Whites voted in Florida last year []There are innumerable opportunities for Black higher education []By law, all races have equal opportunity to public accommodations, housing employment, etc. []Many organizations make special efforts to hire Blacks into professional positions. E.g., a few years ago, I was instructed to fill an actuarial vacancy with a “minority.” I hired a Chinese-American woman (because she was terrific) and was criticized by my boss, because “That’s not what I meant by ‘minority’”[/li]
Let me be clear. I’m not saying that these advances prove that racism is a thing of the past. I’m saying that there’s enough opportunity today, so that the best way to make progress is for minorities to take advantage of it. In particular, a focus on education, ambition, and hard work was effective for minorities as Jews, Chinese, Koreans, Italians, etc. This combination certainly worked for my Black cousin, who because first an English Professor and then a Medical Doctor. She didn’t succeed by mooning over past discrimination or present discrimination. She succeeded by educating herself and by working fantastically hard.

IMHO people of good will who want to see advancement of the African American community should now focus on effective education and on promoting a culture of education. If you look at the current state of education for poor Blacks, you will see that the problems there are so great as to require all of our efforts.