Do you or do you not have a cite of me saying that I believed the someone on this board was vastly inferior and not worthy, and never would be worthy, of either my love or my respect?
lightwait thanks for your post, I wish to contrast what you posted here:
With:
While a start to finish approach was what God used for you, God is way to big to fit into a neat box, God will use many methods to reach His children. For me it started with what I still consider the most beautiful book in the Bible, Revelation. I wanted to see the end game, and I still marvel that in most other books it has a corresponding part in Revelation.
It’s called “genocide” and “cultural destruction”.
No, he/she’s going under the assumption that we don’t need God to behave in a civilized fashion, whether he exists or not. People function just fine when believing in different gods or no gods at all. There’s simply no evidence that God affects anything, real or not; there’s no evidence that if there is a God and he vanished that we’d even notice, much less dissolve into chaos.
And before you go into your spiel about Christianity = civilization again, that’s totally irrelevant; the existence, non-existence or vanishing of God won’t change Christianity in the slightest. They won’t be able to tell either, so nothing will change. They have never been able to tell, so God’s existence has nothing to do with anything Christianity has given or taken from society, except as the irrationality required to be believe in God affects people’s judgement in other matters; God simply doesn’t matter.
Posted by Der Trihs
I’m a he. But yes, that is what I was getting at. Basically, if you get the same result from having something and not having something, then you can pretty much conclude that that “something” is not needed.
For example, if I can go 300 miles on a tank of gas with Super Gas Mileage potion, and then go 300 miles on a tank of gas without Super Gas Mileage potion, I can pretty much conclude that Super Gas Mileage potion makes no difference and I don’t need it.
So, if I can lead a good, moral life without God, then I don’t really need Him. He is not necessary for a good, moral life and perhaps millions of people get along fine without him. As far as being “ignorant,” I’ll just quote Carl Sagan again:
“For me, it is far better to grasp the universe as it really is than to persist in delusion, however satisfying and reassuring.”
In other words, I don’t think it’s ignorant to believe in what there is evidence for, I would say that the belief in God is merely a way of making yourself feel better about having to die one day and a person’s inability to cope with that. I’d rather believe in a harsh reality than a blissfully ignorant made-up world.
As I asked in my last post, if I am atheist/humanist ‘good in deed’, why should I need to have Jesus/God involved at all. If you are virtuous, I will gladly consider myself your brother (metaphorically speaking); but I will have to consider you a brother who may do the right thing despite sadly showing symptoms of mental illness.
And I believe it misleading to credit Christianity with the invention of the printed word - Christianity happened to be the dominant ideology at the time that printing technology emerged.
I can accept that, in the verses inbetween, Paul compares the church to a field that will either produce good things and be under God’s blessing, or thorns and be under God’s curse, and eventually be destroyed. I think the message is - Some have fallen away - Those people are lost forever, please let that not be you. We are at a point where this church can be pleasing to God or not - the time is now to act and I encourage you to chose life and blessings over death and curses and eventual destruction by fire.
Actually the whole thing, it dives into a impossible situation - the world w/o God. It gets even harder to think of what would happen if we remove satanic/demonic forces as well, for being with satanic/demonic forces without God is a definition of Hell.
In determining what the world would be without God/Satan you have to make some assumptions, for you need God for the world to exist. So how much of God stays? We need the part of God that holds the world together, we need the part that breaths life into each one of us. The more of God we remove the quicker we will devolve and cease to exist.
The scripture cite seems to be pointing to people who have chosen life/blessings, accept the Holy Spirit, has experienced the gifts of the Holy Spirit, and then have, for what ever reason changed their mind and have accepted death/curses. These people seem to be eternally lost - the unforgivable sin. This is different for people who don’t know God, or those who first choose death and curses over blessings and life - they can change their minds, repent and be saved.
Except that there’s no evidence for a God at all, much less that he’s required to hold the world together or keep life going.
Judging from the evidence, even if God exists, if he left or died nothing would change at all. Gravity holds the world together, not God’s will; chemistry makes life work, not God. Remove God, and they’d keep on doing it.
You don’t have to believe in God at all. That would be your free will at work. God gave that to you and gives you the right to chose.I am glad to hear you are willing to do good as it is right as in right and wrong. I’m sorry you feel I’m mentally ill. But as I don’t judge others I can only hope that if and when the time comes for you to give your greatest possesion, your life, you will do so with no thought for yourself. You know I would give my life for you, correct? How would feel about my mental illness when you are with your loved ones after knowing that your life was over ?
You can not and will not find God by looking for worldly evidence, God, in general, does not work that way (though there are some exceptions). But whatever way God reaches a person, that person will have all the ‘evidence’ they could need. God choses the way to reach his children.
You were born of this world, you learned the way of this world, and you have gotten good in the ways of this world. Unfortunately this world blinds us to the spirit. Likewise a person can be born of the spirit, and has to learn and grow in that way. It’s not a quick process, just like learning the ways of the world, but you can grow and mature in the spirit as well.
The demonic/satanic kingdom has a vested interest in oppressing people to keep them away from God and His Spirit. They do this in a way that produces exactly the untruths you are stating here. Denial of God, corruption of the goodness of God, denial of the word of God, denial of spiritual forces including the ones that are oppressing them, a sense of self righteousness. Such a person thinks they are acting on their own, but in reality is just a pawn of Satan. This is just one way the demonic/satanic kingdom works, there are other ways including working through some people who profess to be Christians, but are not, and they are responsible for turning others away from the true Christ.
Der Trihs I disagree with your perception of history. History is a long series of tribes dominating one another. Christianity was an attempt to synthesize tribes into a universal cosmology so that different tribes could establish cohesion and organize in larger groups. The Roman Empire was not fettered by moral quandaries regarding the rights of the subjugated peoples, which Christians at least pondered. I am not saying that Christ invented being decent to one another, but we’re talking about the social impact that Christianity has had on the world. Most tribes were running around cutting the heads off of the idols of the tribes they conquered. That sort of violence is endemic to the human condition, as we know it during what we call ‘History’. You have just decided that Christianity is pure evil, so you ignore the fact that Christian civilization was at the very least no more violent than the prior situation, and has spawned a belief in the sovereignty of the fellow man. People were not enslaving other people out of piety to Christianity. You cannot find a single passage in the gospels where Jesus justifies the ownership of one man over another.
Your gripes are more in line with gripes against the Roman Empire and its worldly ways than Christianity.
For one who hates Christianity so much, you certainly mirror Evangelicals quite a bit.
To understand history, you have to be able to examine what happened divorced from your opinion of how you ‘feel’ about what happened.
Obviously I can’t agree - what passes for free will is to me largely the justification in hindsight of actions predetermined by a selfish subconscious actor.
I was suggesting you (as a believer) were displaying symptoms of mental illness - delusions of grandeur (god speaks to me), possibly thought implantation, and the (albeit cheerful) paranoia that an omnipresent father figure is watching your every move. Obviously this is too widespread to be medically diagnosed as mentally ill, but I still feel a great pity inside me when confronted with otherwise nice people holding religious belief, the way I expect I will feel if my mother in her old age becomes confused and demented…
Anyway, have a good weekend, brother. 
I pondered for quite some time on how to respond to this.
I believe you mean well, but your response seems to be mostly about pride and boastfulness, with a touch of a martyr complex.
So, to answer your question: No, it does not sound like love to me.
I am pleased you took time to consider what I said before you passed judgement on me. Perhaps there was a bit of pride in what I said and I thank you for pointing that out to me . Pride is not something I want in my heart. As far as boasting I take this to mean you think I don’t mean what I say . I assure you I do. What I will do will be done just as the sun will rise tommarow. As I asked some one just up thread how would you feel being with those who love you after you stood at deaths door only to be yanked back ? Not all of my deeds have been or will be as good as this . I have only one life to give but I will give it when the time is right .Those with martyr complexes, as I understand it search for opportunitys to give thier lives. I don’t need to . Jesus will tell me when the time is right.
So, it’s kind of a moot point.
Jesus is going to tell you, at some time or other, to give up your life.
What if he doesn’t? Will you be disappointed? Or will you just accept that he didn’t have that particular use for you?
If you give your life to save or help others who are in physical danger, fine.
But if you cut loose in a shopping mall to “save ‘sinners’ from themselves”, that’s another story entirely.
What do YOU say?
What do you “do” for an eternity if there is existence after death? If you do wind up someplace, I mean eternity is a long time. People may start begging for non-existence. Think about it, in an eternity, you could live out every fantasy, learn everything there is to know, go through every possible permutation and combination of every event that ever happened and ever will happen, do that an infinite amount of times… and STILL have an infinite amount of time left.
Actually, that seems to be “is in danger of being cursed” - it isn’t certain. That there is certainty on the burned part suggests to me that such people could lead a perfectly good life (free from Satan’s influence), yet they will at the end be actively destroyed.
You haven’t really addressed my point that Paul is talking to a group different from those that are saved. In fact it specifically states that the people he is talking to “…have helped his people and continue to help them”(Hebrews 6:10 NIV).
Just out of interest, what would be a definition of a world without both? I understand you believe it to be impossible, but consider it a thought experiment.
Ah, well, here we seem to be getting to the crux of the matter. You seem to have already agreed that, while without God we will eventually fall apart, that it may take place after a very long time. You also seem to have conceded that this “devolution” might not take place immediately. It seems to be possible, then, under your views, that the world without God/Satan could be superficially similar to this world for eras of time.
Again, that would be risk of curses. And this does depend on the “All people actually believe in God, including atheists and those of other religions” argument, since those who fall away tend not to believe in God anymore and thus don’t mentally accept death or curses.
I still tend to disagree. The point that Paul mentions specifically that God is not unjust suggests that the people he is talking to have committed some possible offense or sin, potentially unconsciously, against God, for which their later work can make up for. The only sin being talked about in this passage is that of leaving God. I think it’s a reasonable conclusion that Paul is continuing the theme rather than talking about another sin or set of sins entirely that he doesn’t actually mention in the text.
Do you believe that I passed judgment on you? I don’t feel that I have made any assessment of you as a person, only of your words as I understand them.
Boasting doesn’t imply dishonesty. I could truthfully be a world-renowned hematopathologist, but if I go around making sure everyone knows it, I’m still boasting.
I don’t think someone with a martyr complex needs to search for an opportunity to give their life; they just have a need to believe that their death will serve a higher purpose they support.
Well I say if you would like to accuse me of being some kind of mass murderer maybe you should take you accusations to the pit. As I can see your kind of new here I’ll let you know in this forum mostly we try to keep it civil .
Yes I believe you have judged me. As it is only my words you have to form an opinion of me what other criteria would you use. Look, don’t get me wrong . I am judged every day in real life. I am a very imposing man and very unatractive to gaze upon. That does not bother me either. After 40 years I barely even notice anymore. So be sure I am all broken up to be judged here . At least your polite. You see what Der Trihs says to me and you see how I respond to him. With love. The guy just in the last post thinks I am a mass muderer. I invited him to the pit but I wouldn’t even go there. It’s far too nasty .
Oh. Did I accuse you of being a mass murderer?
No.
Potential mass murderer? Eh. I read the papers.
That’s why I asked for your point of view. Will you be disappointed if Jesus doesn’t command you to lay down your life?
Nothing like being all dressed up for a party, only to find the party is cancelled.
Give me a scenario in which you would be willing to lay down your life for the sake of Jesus. That should clear things up.