Why is it that people who have faith in a particular religion think that the rest of us who dont are doing it as a choice or to be awkward?
Its not like choosing on which political party to vote for .
Personally I’d love to think that when I die that I was going to heaven but I dont believe that I will just as I dont believe in leprachauns or the easter bunny.
The only proof that religionists offer to back up their beliefs are the often self contradictory writings of various humans ,the meanings of which the believers even argue amongst themselves about .
And the validity of the writings ?
“He says god told him to write those messages.”
“But what if hes lying ,or insane?”
“Dont be stupid ,god wouldnt talk to a liar or a lunatic!”
Alright. I’ll have a look at the lines in question in those two in addition to the NIV, then (assuming i’m right in thinking that’s the New American Standard and Amplified Bibles?)
It does seem like that, but i’m not so certain.
It’s not actually made clear whether the land producing thorns and thistles is actually due to the land being cursed. It doesn’t actually come out and say that one is the results of another. So it’s a matter of interpretation.
I would say this mostly a matter of how it’s written; before the thorns line, it points out that the land is cursed, and using a semicolon shows what this entails. Cursed is the land; this is what it means. I would have thought that were the thorns part of the curse, they would be included there, as opposed to the start of a new line. Cursed is the land; this is what it means, and it shall produce thorns and thistles.
Plus, by putting thorns and thistles in the same line as plants of the field (or fruits, depending on your version), it tends to imply that these might not actually be part of the curse, since plants and fruits were themselves already present and what Adam and Eve were living on at the time (if I understand correctly). It’s saying there will be thorns and thistles and they’ll have to live off the plants - but they were already living off the plants. Possible they already had thorns and thistles. The change being made as I understand it is just in the way they live; possibly the thorns hurt them whereas they didn’t before. But that’s a total guess. I could also make the point that thistles were actually quite useful at the time, for making clothes and other linen and for food. But the inclusion of thorns makes it pretty clear that it’s not being used as another ok thing as plants are, so I think we can dismiss that idea.
Ah, but he expands;
It seems the “curse” in question doesn’t refer to one that’s already on them, but perhaps one that God is right then placing upon them; since his reasoning for putting them into Hell doesn’t refer to any curse but a lack of good works. I see it as more God saying “You people, who did no good works in your life; you are now cursed because of it and will be sent to Hell”. Alternatively, it could be that the curse he talks about is present already but is not the curse from knowing but rejecting God, since he gives a different reason for their going to Hell. If it was, simply mentioning that they are cursed would be the reason, or even going into it further and saying “You are cursed; you knew me and rejected me”.
I would agree, but since my interpretation of both those parts of Hebrews and Matthew seem to be different (although I think we may be agreeing somewhat on Hebrews), I wouldn’t agree that the curse in question in Matthew is that of knowing and rejecting God; together with my interpretation of Hebrews I think that perhaps knowing and rejecting is not an ultimate barrier to salvation (or repentance), just an extra hurdle to overcome that may be done so with continued good works and faith.
Thank you for outlining your own personal beliefs.
It’s feudal, but I see your point. I would tend to disagree (of course ), but then it seems like both of our opinions on the matter are ultimately WAGs.
That doesn’t seem entirely fair. I mean, under your beliefs, blasphemy against the Holy Spirit is an unforgivable sin (I think). Were I to blaspheme so, no matter what good i’ve done in my life, it wouldn’t be used to judge me; that doesn’t seem very just. Likewise, a person could do many bad things and as long as his good things are enough to gain salvation (and his bad not enough to deny it), then he’ll only be judged by those good things. Justice, for me, would be to take everything into account. But of course that’s only my opinion.
I think you’re giving to much emphasis to the use of the word curse and drawing lines of separation that may not exist.
In large part when studying the NT I’ve seen that what is being talked about is not God looking at our behavior and spiritual condition and then deciding whether we get a blessing/reward or a curse/punishment. Even though the language may be presented that way , what is actually being talked about are the unavoidable consequences of our choices and actions. Look at
This refers to the process of spiritual growth that you’ll see me speak of repeatedly and is referenced so often in the NT. As we grow spiritually and commune more clearly with the HS it should reflect in our behavior. The goal is to continue to grow not to stagnate or fall back into old behavior patterns that we need to repent from again.
IMHO the curse is simply the consequences of our choices. Remember
In Matt 25 you have the parable of the talents in which the servants who went out and increased their talents were the ones the master praised. Actively seeking spiritual growth and not just resting on a certain dogma is crucial.
I find the parable of sheep and goats in Matt 25 very interesting. Note that the people who did the good deeds didn’t know they were serving the Lord by helping others. Most Christians would know this basic principle. What is being stressed is the true state of their heart, which resulted in service to others, over just doctrine or dogma. Consider
Here are people who do believe in Jesus as Lord but never continued on with true spiritual growth and service to others. Instead it seems they took on a superficial worship of dogma thinking they really did prophesy and cast out demons in the name of the Lord, and yet they did not allow themselves to continue on to maturity, and be transformed by the HS in a way that was reflected by more loving behavior, so they were not actually close to the Lord.
We don’t lose free will by accepting Jesus as Lord. A minister I knew once said,“you can save a man from drowning but he still has a life to lead after that” If he decides to go back into the same water he must face those consequences
Look at
I think you can read this and the other passages and see that what is being stressed is not the labels or doctrine but the real condition of our hearts and spirits and the fruit that comes from that. Christians who give lip service to Jesus without the true spirit of love in their hearts are no closer to god than anyone else. In fact I think the passages indicate that those who act with true love and compassion toward their fellow man are following the spirit and our human labels of Christian, Buddhist, Muslim, Atheist, agnostic, etc. don’t matter at all one way or the other.
Look at verse 32. even if you don’t see Jesus as Lord, but still follow the spirit, then you are on the path that leads to all truth. If you deny or resist what the HS has led you to then spiritual growth cannot continue and you face the consequences of that denial.
So , how does that apply to the people who thought they were casting out demons in Jesus name but still were told to depart from Christ? IMO, they revered the icon of Jesus, the image and name, through a certain doctrine they thought was correct, but never truly surrendered to and followed the leading of the HS. In that sense they blasphemed against the spirit and put man’s teaching and doctrine above being led to a more loving and compassionate life.
How does it apply to those who served others but didn’t know they were serving Christ? For whatever reasons, culture, background, personal experience, they didn’t see Jesus as Lord but they still followed the Holy Spirit into service of others. Their lives bore the fruits of the spirit and that’s what really matters.
Well, I think you need some Love before you can make that judgement. Your words here lead me to believe that you are as barren and desolate as a human being can be. Trust me , I know . Having been there in your most isolated of places I held everything in my hands to make it better . Steel , Blood , Hate ,Guts, but in the end only Love gave me the joy I needed to continue my walk. I can only hope you won’t have to touch the things I did to see what is right . But like every lesson of value in life you must taste it to learn it. So keep up with your hate and self pity and see where you end up.
Yes I see that, though there is no doubt that the ground is cursed at the time. A note about the semicolon, the Hebrew text has no such symbols it just uses plain text without breaks. Translators put in our symbols to help out, but they have to be taken carefully. But I can accept your point that the thorns and thistles may not the be curse itself.
The change as I understand it is now man will have to work for his food and needs. It’s not like it was in the garden that when Adam was hungry he reached over and grabbed a piece of fruit that just happened to be with in arms reach. Compare this to Jesus when He needed money and was able to pull a coin out of a fish. Needs are readably met by God for unfallen man, but we (fallen man) have to struggle for these things.
It does fit, since Adam and Eve needed no clothes before the fall, thistles would not be needed for clothes. After the fall it is clear that God will not be providing as before, and we will need to suffer in order to survive. Making clothes from thistles seems like something that fits right in (though God did start them out with clothes as they left).
The curse in Matthew 25:41-43 and also the blessed in 34 to me seem to be preexisting. The judgment is at the end times, after Satan’s defeat, which would be after the second coming and the raising of the dead of all that who have ever lived. It seems pretty silly to curse someone who is going to be thrown into the lake of fire.
Us becoming children of God is unfair, why should we get the same as Jesus, after all He committed no sin? We are saved only due to the grace of God. The sin you mentioned, I believe is very difficult to commit, and requires full knowledge of what you are doing - I don’t believe it possible for someone to commit casually, or for someone who does not know God to commit at all. Having this sin available to us is fair, it gives us the option of declining salvation.
My understanding of the condition of salvation is to surrender to God through Jesus. Jesus is now the rightful owner of you. At the time that the world will be condemned, the children of the world will be likewise condemned, people who truly accept Jesus is not people of the world. It doesn’t really matter when one accepts Jesus, or what sins they commit, all can be forgiven. It is very possible that horrible people did advance the Kingdom of God and lead more people to Christ before they themselves saw the light.
This is not just a person who believes in God, but one that has also experienced the power of God flow through them, the spiritual gifts like prophecy and healing, then rejecting God. Not so much as saying there is no God, but saying I know God exists and I reject Him and His gifts. One can apparently reject the Father and/or the Son and still come back. The actual reason that this is unforgivable I’m not sure, but I assume it’s because it’s God that is inside of us we have rejected, and as such we can never know God anymore, and can’t do His will.
In growth in Christ, and the Holy Spirit, I have found that you get a heightened awareness of the spiritual issues including the real effects of blessings and curses - it becomes part of our behavior and knowledge and we are to use that to further God’s kingdom. It seems like you are boiling it down to worldly issues on both the good and bad sides, instead of taking the issue of not being caught up in worldly issues but reject the world and do works in the Spirit.
This is a great point, thank you. As I pointed out earlier I do intend to do some homework to see if I can agree with your basic premise.
This I also take along the lines to the warning to the Church in Ephesian (Rev 2) - ‘You have lost your first love’ (love of God). Usually noted as the most spiritually advanced church in the NT, it seems like they were misusing the spiritual gifts and not expanding God’s love. It is a good point and worthy of further consideration.
My take of it is once one surrenders to Christ, Christ can do what He want ever He wants with you, since He owns you. What Jesus does do it free that person with the consequences of freeing that person will result in that person being free to serve God.
Again I don’t currently accept this but this is the point of your belief I plan to look into, I just have not gone into it much.
Demons are fully sentient beings, capable of emotion (James 2:19), Will (Matt 12:44), Intellect (Mark 1:24), Self Awareness (Mark 5:9), Ability to speak (many passages). It does appear that demons can be ‘bluffed’ but if the demon accepts the bluff or not is up to the demon.
There is no doubt that the name of Jesus is very powerful to them, but some demons might push the issue to see if the Jesus you speak of is truely the Christ or just a symbol that you use because it works.
Omegaman, you haven’t answered my question. I want to know how you classify Jesus’ refusal to kill Satan as an act of love, since as you’ve stated it allowed Satan to carry on causing evil for the rest of history until whenever God gets around to stopping him.
Or perhaps we’ll advance farther and faster without a God who’s focused on his own glorification, according to you, holding us back. Or more realistically, nothing at all would change, since whether God exists or not, he doesn’t do much of anything that affects the real world. You keep saying that the world will vanish or civilization collapse without God, but you fail to give any reason for it. How could God vanishing hurt civilization ?
So he helps us escape by annihilation your evil God ? Sounds like a good deed to me.
And I find it rather disgusting to claim that it isn’t evil for God to kill people.
Because theirs is the One True Faith revealed by God, the one whose rules should all be followed. If it isn’t obvious that this is true, then many of the justifications for their attitudes and God’s go out the window. It’s harder to justify tossing people into Hell for following the wrong religion when it’s not obvious that it’s the wrong religion. It’s harder to claim that your religious beliefs should be made law if you admit that there’s no particular reason to be any more sure of them than the opposing beliefs of the church down the street.
Yes, because I don’t go all gooey at random uttering of the word “love”, I’m a desolate, empty shell of a man. :rolleyes:
Another reason to oppose Jesus then, if he’s a slaveowner. Anyone who owns a person should be imprisoned for life or killed. Not followed. NO ONE is the rightful owner of anyone else.
You go on and on about how we should all be good little grovelers before God, and about the terrible consequences if we aren’t, but you portray a God that is simply evil. A predatory, tyrannical egomaniac, obsessed with his own glorification. A God that should be opposed, assuming he’s real.
Jesus has no righteous charge against Satan and would mean that Jesus would have committed a sin of murder. As such Jesus would not have been wrongly put to death, as such the Father would not have raised Jesus from the dead, as Jesus would have righteously deserved to die. By Jesus refraining from such action He would inherit the world and be able to free His children from death.
Turn away before it’s too late . I am not Him only a man . Don’t destroy yourself friend. Now you have taken to bold face lying to show your hate. Turn away Der Trihs Turn Away
Well thanks for the congrats ! Forty years it took to learn that lesson .Some people never learn . They just keep on with the hate and the evil bullshit untill there is nothing left of themselves or anyone around them. How long did it take you ?
Really? You know what I loathe - people who claim to possess virtues they don’t show.
Perhaps, Oh Mighty Christian Warrior, you can explain how labeling someone “as barren and desolate as a human being can be” is not judging them. As for me, when I judge someone, I’ll stand behind it - no weasel words like “lead me to believe.”
If opposing the ownership of human beings makes hateful - then sign me up for hate. If it means I am going to be destroyed, I’d rather be destroyed than owned. I’d rather be on the side of freedom than on the side of anyone who owns people.
Most of those killed were not Christians. Many killed were children who did not have a chance to decide for themselves. Many were adults, who might have heard of your religion, but never had a real opportunity to understand it. Perhaps one, perhaps many of these people might have converted if they had lived, and then, in your view, had eternal life. So it’s not at all clear that God realistically gave these people a chance at eternal life.
If there is good to be had in this life, certainly some of the children would have experienced this good if they had lived. God took it from them, and replaced it with whatever surely mild form of hell you envision for them. So, no matter what, God did evil to these people, and our world is a bit worse for his actions.
From another post - whyever would you say God created a Satan he can’t kill? Any evidence for this, besides you thinking he hasn’t? I suppose it is possible that God could create such a creature, but, knowing in advance of the Rebellion, why would he? He could certainly let Satan do evil if it was for the greater good in some way - surely making Satan eternal is equivalent to letting an evil but killable Satan run free. So this makes no sense.
), but then it seems like both of our opinions on the matter are ultimately WAGs.