Where are we going?

Great Debates
301

Christians only allowed to kill the Beast? How has that worked out?
I thought God was eternal and perfect. So how come he changed his mind, from killing is required to killing is forbidden? Jesus got something on God?

Plus, God didn’t do the only killing - he ordered his boys to do it also. That okay with you?

If Jesus comes down and orders you to rub out the spawn of Satan, and you pull out your Bible and tell him that it says right here that he can’t do that, you’re going to wind up a pile of ashes my friend. Such pride you have to think you know better than God! You might get lucky, and when you show Revelations to Jesus, he’ll say, “You believe that shit?” and bust a gut laughing.

302

I know you didn’t address this to me but you said something similar so I’ll try and answer the best I can. Jesus is about love . He faced Satan while He was on this earth and did not kill him. It was not Satans time to die. Jesus will no killing done in His name . Anyone who says different is lying . God is Jesus’s Father if he says someone will die it will be. I believe Jesus was sent to walk among us to show Gods Love for us and let us know that even though we are not perfect that through His sons perfect sacrifice at our hands we could have life everlasting . All it requires is that we love God and His Son and love his children in this world. I’m sure Satan’s followers enjoy some protection by him but it always makes me chuckle when I see them doing his work. Because they do it as happily as I do the Lords work. Do they think Satan has some special place for them in hell ? I really doubt it. He is the most vile piece of filth this world has ever known and all he has for them is pain and suffering just like they garbage he spreads here . Hope it doesn’t sound to crazy .

303

I appreciate that you think Jesus is all about love, but I suspect Jesus wouldn’t care what you think. If you guys have explicit Biblical prohibitions against the death penalty, say, I wish you’d show them to some of your brethren in the US, who are solidly for it. (Catholics excluded - they seem to walk the talk.)

I know how much you love Satan :slight_smile: but could you give me specific Biblical references to nasty things he has actually done. He tempted Jesus, true, and he supposedly convinced Judas to let Jesus die to save the world, but as for history, God seems to have knocked off a lot more people than Satan ever has. While it’s all a myth, I think a good case can be made that the good guy lost the first battle, and the bad guy won.

The pain and suffering comes straight from God, not Satan. The snake was not Satan - that retconned goyisher bullshit.

God causes earthquakes, floods and fire. Satan made Linda Blair spew out pea soup. Sure you’re backing the right guy?

304

So you’re saying that Jesus refused to kill Satan in order to maintain his own purity, thereby allowing Satan to cause massive suffering for the rest of human history.

305

God causes no disasters , these are of the pysical world . Please don’t think Catholics the greatest religion ; only the individuals within are of themselves true or not , they know and those who are true know . As far as Jesus caring what I think ? I can only hope He would allow me to wash His feet as He washed the feet of His apostles. And the U.S. ? I did not vote for those in power . I weep at thier misuse of power to free Iraq ? How about Somalia . Places that need our help to insure that justice is served for what is right for humanity.These are the things that God and His Son desires. Casting death upon my breathren was once a choice I allowed myself the right of making . No more. It is Gods providence. I now accept my place as a soldier in Gods army . I do as He commands and do it proudly with a smile on my face and love in my heart , the love that comes from knowing that I belong to Him and his Son . I do know that Jesus commands that I love my brother . That is you , and everybody else who walks upon this earth . All I can show you is love. Even and up to including my death . I will do so untill I draw my dying breath. As the sun rises every day the words I speak are like the steel of a sword or gun that brings death . My words will bring life to all who know me. As Jesus is my Savior.

P.S. Kanicbird Please bring the scriptures that **Voyager ** perhaps they do not exists . None come to mind to me. Thank you My Brother

306

It was not time for Satan to die.It couldn’t be soon enough for me.

307

And who created the physical world? Who created a world with earthquakes, and who doesn’t stop them?

I’m not doubting your love. You both exist, haven’t murdered millions, and are no doubt a nice guy. In fact I’m sure you are much nicer than the God who is in the Bible.
Kanicbird need not send me a Bible. 30 years ago, on a discussion board much like this one (yes, before there was an Internet) I said I’d read a Bible all the way through, and post notes. Someone sent me one, and I did. It was quite an eye-opener, and it solidified my atheism quite well. In any case I’m Jewish, and even when I believed in God I rejected any God who could condemn his creations to eternal torment.

308

You know, after that post I spoke with someone more knowledgable of the Bible than I and he believes that God does cause these disasters. His reasons for doing so I’m sure as far from my understanding as mine is from an insects. This person pointed out that in the Bible it states that the righteous will suffer with the wicked . As I have stated before I am here to learn and I am always glad to speak to people like you who can teach me . I hope you don’t think me a fool. I feel the world is heading for disasters like the ones you read about in the old testament . It’s going to be scary but only love will get us through it .

309

You’re going to have to explain this, I don’t understand.

310

It means when he dies it’s over.

311

If, when we die, we go to Heaven or Hell, where does Satan go when he dies?

312

People fight wars over it, and kill each other over it. They argue about it, campaign about it, fight about it, battle over it, murder over it, harass over it, and worse.

Why? Why not worry about the duringlife? There’s no way to know what comes next. I think if it’s anything then we’re not meant to know or we would know. Maybe it’s meant to be a surprise.

shhhhh don’t ruin it!

The thing that gets me is we have all these conflicting beliefs, and a good deal of them say believe this and don’t believe that or you’ll be Punished Forever™. Why? There’s no concrete evidence. Heck there’s no physical evidence at all. I’m just suppose to take your word for it? No way.

See it boils down to any god(s) that would punish you for, not believing something you have no evidence for, aren’t good gods. That’s just downright irrational. You’re not gonna be safe with them for eternity because if they will turn on you for that they’ll turn on you for alot of things.

I figure whatever happens, happens. Long as I do my best to follow my conscience and things as best I can figure them out any decent god(s) will cut me some slack for being human. If they don’t then in the long run I never had a shot anyway (see above).
Now one could make the arguement that I’ll be changed in the afterlife, but I dunno, if you can’t screw up then you don’t have free will. I’d rather screw up and be human, then loose my freewill.

Not all ideas of the afterlife are either eternal punishment or paradise. In Hinduism and Buddhism your karma affects how good your next life is. Eventually in Buddhism (dunno about Hinduism) your karma adds up enough that you make it to Nirvana, and then Nine Inch Nails is playing too. No wait. Nirvana is state when you’re one with the universal conscienceness. Enlightenment is said to be when you reach this while still alive(as we know it). If your karma is bad enough before you can start the next life you have to walk the hellish path to clear your karma. Some believe Earth IS the the hellish path.
In traditional Inuit belief systems when you die your soul remains on earth where you can bring good luck to people you like and bad like to people you don’t (when your very life depends on hunting the scarce arctic wildlife luck is very important to you). Depending on how tramatic your life/death was will determine how powerful your afterlife soul is. Sedna (goddess of marine mammals and fish who all the Inuit hunters looked to for food) for example was sold by her father against her will to be a crow’s bride. She froze to death in the arctic sea trying to escape. Her body turned into all the marine mammals that feed every Inuit. Well atleast until the white man came with his florida orange juice, fast food, and frozen pizza. The Aurora one of the most beautiful natural phenomenons near earth are said to be the souls of the ancestors dancing in the sky. Inuit where very careful and followed traditions about hunting so they wouldn’t offend the souls of the animals they hunted. In the Inuit belief system an animal soul is the same kinda soul as a human, infact they’re interchangeable. That seal you’re eating could have been the reincarnation of your uncle jim. One tradition was when a hunter brought in a fresh seal kill his wife would offer it a bowl of water as a token of hospitality.

In Gnostic beliefs (not to be confused with agnostics) this world is an illusion created by a an evil false god (the war like fight em and smite em god of the old testament) called the demiurge to trap us here. When you die you get reincarnated back into this world. The only way to escape is to learn all you can till you can see through the illusion. In gnostic beliefs the serpant in the garden of eden is a hero because it started humans learning and gave them a chance to escape.

In Canadian belief systems when you die if your good you get reincarnated in British Columbia. If you’re good and you die in BC, you stay there. If you’re still good when you die a third time you go to a secret province known as Super VIP British Columbia, and if you die a fourth time they walk you to first base.*
*incase there’s any doubt, I’m kidding, aside from VIP BC, that exists:p

Anyway afterlife beliefs can be interesting reading, but who knows for real. Why worry? We have the DuringLife to worry about right now. Enjoy it, try to make it better for other people if you can. People that do that are awesome. The rest always works it’s self out.
So to answer your question… it’s a surprise!

313

I reckon only the Big Man knows for sure.I’m betting the ice cube on the sun bit.

314

I know that, but what I want to know is why Jesus didn’t kill Satan two thousand years ago. If you’re saying Satan is the cause of all evil, then Jesus is ultimately responsible for the continuation of human suffering for having let Satan go. If he avoided killing Satan because he didn’t want to blemish his own purity, he was sacrificing mankind for the sake of his own pride.

315

Thanks for acknowledging that. We all have three choices about this issue

  1. As you said, agree that God lets people die, or kills them, but say it is for a greater good. In response, I ask you if you really believe every child and infant who died in the tsunami had to. If even one could have been saved while accomplishing God’s purpose, God is not all good.

  2. God exists, but is evil.

  3. God does not exist, and these things happen because we live on a world torn by geological forces which are purposeless. We just get in the way. But we can fight back, by building stronger buildings, and learning about these forces in order to give early warning of calamities. That’s the most comforting possibility for me. It certainly doesn’t preclude love, but it is the love of human for human, as people strive to protect those they will never meet. Isn’t that better than praying to a god who gives no indication of caring?

316

It seems to me (and Voyager’s 3rd point above) that natural disasters happen regardless, and that as relatively puny humans all we can really do is be prepared with protective measures and contingency plans. If the consensus on global warming is correct, the priority should be atoning for human civilisation’s massive ecological ‘sins’ - reducing greenhouse emissions, producing environmentally harmonious energy sources etc. Love is always going to be a good thing to have around but if we are serious about human salvation we should be concentrating on tangible, workable solutions in this life.

317

Love is little if any help in disasters. Kicking out the Bushites and reforming FEMA would do more to help in disasters than all the love in the world.

Really this . . . fetishization of love I see so much of is creepy, and to be blunt, stupid. It’s just an emotion, neither good nor bad. Love does not conquer all, nor does it always provide a happy ending, nor is it superior to most other emotions.

318

For general work I like the NIV, but when questions arise I like to switch to either the NASB as it is noted as the most literal translation, and the AMP which will fill in hidden meanings, but the NIV is fine. I brought that up because I have found the CEV sometimes has phrasing that I find not to be entirely accurate.

I see what you mean about the ‘close to being cursed’ and agree with your interpertation. In Gen 3:17-18 it appears like thorns and thistles are produced from the cursed land.

It appears like these people being described are taking in the goodness of God and not doing anything good with it, and actually doing bad with it (producing thrones and thistles) - perhaps this refers to cursing others. The warning may be the final warning, the curse will be the lose of salvation:

It appears that these people in the verse above are already under a curse when final judgment is made. The warning in Hebrews I would take as one not to become these people in Matthew.

I’m still undecided, but leaning towards perseverance till the end, due to it being stated a number of times in the NT, but still leave open the possibility that accepting Jesus will cause a change of heart that will produce perseverance till the end.

Another way I sometimes like to look at it is there are 3 states of being. 1- not knowing God, 2- knowing God and accepting God, 3 - knowing God and rejecting them. With the greatest reward for 2 and greatest punishment for 3.

We normally think of a person starting at 1
A person can stay at 1 till death
A person can go from 1 to 2 or 3,
if they go to 2 first they may still be able to go to 3.
If they go to 3 first then can still repent and go to 2.
If you leave 2 you can’t come back.

My view is without God the world ceases to exist, but getting past that, and allowing for some way of sustaining the earth w/o God, I really don’t expect civilization as we know it to last more then perhaps 3-4 generations at the most - and that is a outside chance - I think in the range of 1000’s of years to me is just out of the question. This does not necessarily mean that humanity will totally die off by then, but we are pretty close to caveman days again, with perhaps a few fuetal lords.

No I don’t believe so. It appears like God will look into His book of Judgement to see the works of the person, and the Book of Life to see if that person is saved. If the person is saved only his good things will be used to judge him, and used to determine his reward, if the person is not in the Book of Life then sins will be used against him.

319

Sorry for the delay, I was up in the woods for a few days. Anyway the above was to the question of basically how bad a dude is Satan, doesn’t God do all the killings? The question is flawed, it’s not physical death, but eternal death that is the issue. Here is a scriptural passage to that effect:

Satan is not trying to physically kill people, but trying to eternally kill people. This is far worse, actually the only thing that matters, yet Satan deceives us to think God is the one that commits ‘evil’ by physically killing people.

While Satan is saying it’s not wrong to commit immorality, and convincing you to commit such immorality, he is also before God;s thrown accusing you of that immorality.

320

It appears that Satan exists so that we have the opportunity to become children of God, and expand the glory of God - in short this is the reason for everything God does - expanding the glory of God. Going into how it expands the glory of God is a spiritual matter that I hesitate to go into.

When Satan is thown into the Lake of Fire for eternity (perhaps ages of ages instead of forever), the chance for people to come to God is over. As long as Satan exists we can turn to God.

Thrown into the Lake of Fire, along with the beast and false prophet, ‘and they will be tormented day and night for ever and ever’. I’m not sure if that is death for Satan however.

This in general is true, but it covers a lot of territory, including a interesting exception during the end times (Rev 16:2).

Voyager you leave out that God allowed those people to experience life, allowed a chance of eternal life, those people would most likely die at sometime in their lives. and the ultimate ‘good’ to be had is in this life, as opposed to the eternal life. All ommisions are critical and assumptions are incorrect.