Where do you draw the line as to what is or is not cultural appropriation?

[Czarcasm]

Being an adult white male, I really don’t think it is my line to draw in the first place.

[Novelty_Bobble]

Of course it is. It is an individual and subjective line. Your opinion is just as valid as anyone else’s. You get to draw it and defend it for yourself. As every else can.

[AK84]

Dear God…

[sciurophobic]

@Odesio

A lot of Americans are into yoga, did we appropriate that from India?

We did when somebody decided it would be better with goats.

[MrDibble]

@Little_Nemo

So I guess my rule is that it’s okay to use things from other cultures as long as you treat them with the same respect that people of that culture would.

That’s a nice formulation.

[bump]

I feel like there has to be an element of exploitation in some way. Like if some white chef starts swiping dishes/techniques/flavor combinations from some other culture’s cuisine and doesn’t appropriately attribute them on the menu. Or the example of the Koran passages in the dress fabric is another good example.

But merely eating/wearing/using/imitating some aspect of someone’s culture in a personal sense? Imitation is the sincerest form of flattery, as the saying goes. And other cultures often have great ideas that can and should be incorporated into other ones. Tamales at Christmas is something that is widespread in Texas among people of all backgrounds, even though it’s a traditional Mexican thing. Is that cultural appropriation, or is it just a great idea that got some traction outside its own culture?

[Machine_Elf]

@bump

Like if some white chef starts swiping dishes/techniques/flavor combinations from some other culture’s cuisine and doesn’t appropriately attribute them on the menu.

How far do we go with this? Curry chips (fries) are quite popular in Ireland, but I doubt many chippers bother to let their customers know that curry originally came from India. Along these same lines, do Domino’s and Pizza Hut deserve a slap for not properly attributing their food to Italy?

[Yookeroo]

@Cervaise

But the bottom line, though, in my view, is this: An act meets the standard of cultural appropriation if, as a result of the act, the original culture is obscured or compromised or replaced by the version being promoted or portrayed by the appropriating party. If the people of the original culture are able to carry on without their practices being marginalized or mutated by the influence of a stronger outside portrayal, if they are still able to represent their original culture fully and freely alongside the inauthentic alternative, then, for me, I would hesitate before using the appropriation label.

This is a good definition. The accusation gets thrown around more than it should. Someone dressing or decorating in the style of another culture because they like that style is normal culture influencing another.

@sciurophobic

But as non-Black and -brown celebrities, they have the privilege to wear the looks associated with another person’s culture when that person can’t necessarily wear looks from her own culture without suffering some type of fallout. Sometimes I wish I could wear those “Bo Derek” cornrow braids because I just want my hair off my face.

But what does it signal when I wear them as a Black woman? It denotes that I’m ghetto or that I’m likely not educated. Maybe I’m into rappers and I smoke weed. I don’t have the license to wear this particular hairstyle as I want to. Kim Kardashian, however, can wear it any day of the week and walk into an office or a business meeting, and no one is going to think she uses drugs or lacks sophistication. No one is going to fire her or Miley, or kick them out of school for wearing these hairstyles.

I hate this. The problem isn’t with the “appropriator”. It’s with the employer or school official This are the minds that need changing. Those are the racists. If anything, Bo Derek and Miley will help make it more acceptable. And give you an example to point to when calling out hypocrisy. Don’t blame the people who like aspects of your culture.

[bump]

I was meaning something more along the lines of taking some sort of dish and changing it up and calling it something entirely different and not attributing it at all.

Like if a chef made a tamale with differently spiced meat and called it something else and didn’t make any effort to call it a tamale or otherwise acknowledge its Mexican roots. Like if your chippers didn’t even call them curry chips- if they called it ‘special seasoning’ or some other nonsense might count.

[octopus]

I don’t think so-called cultural appropriation is in any way a negative thing.

[sciurophobic]

@bump

I was meaning something more along the lines of taking some sort of dish and changing it up and calling it something entirely different and not attributing it at all.

Like on the Great British Bake Off/Baking Show when the bakers made challah but it was called “plaited loaf”? Or when the technical challenge was rainbow bagels?

[Thudlow_Boink]

@bump

I feel like there has to be an element of exploitation in some way. Like if some white chef starts swiping dishes/techniques/flavor combinations from some other culture’s cuisine and doesn’t appropriately attribute them on the menu.

What sort of attribution on a menu is required?

@bump

Like if a chef made a tamale with differently spiced meat and called it something else and didn’t make any effort to call it a tamale or otherwise acknowledge its Mexican roots.

I don’t understand what’s wrong with this. Are there rules that have to be followed when naming dishes that are derived from or similar to, but not the same as, existing dishes?

[Miller]

@sciurophobic

Like on the Great British Bake Off/Baking Show when the bakers made challah but it was called “plaited loaf”?

I haven’t seen that episode of the show, and I’m not British, so maybe “plaited loaf” is the standard term for it in the UK, but if I saw challah in an American bakery, and it was being sold as “plaited loaf,” I’d definitely wonder why they were going out of their way to remove a connection with Jewish culture from the product. Not in a “boycott immediately” sense, but it’d be a definite “wtf?” from me.

Did they call the bagel a “boiled bread ring?”

[Eyebrows_0f_Doom]

@sciurophobic

Or when the technical challenge was rainbow bagels?

How does rainbow bagels fit “cultural appropriation”? I’ve seen rainbow bagels for sale in NYC at many places. They bake all kinds of things on that show.

[silenus]

@Machine_Elf

Along these same lines, do Domino’s and Pizza Hut deserve a slap for not properly attributing their food to Italy?

They’d better not! With their new PM, Italy just might declare war. What Domino’s and Pizza Hut serve is distinctly United Statesian.

@Cervaise

But the bottom line, though, in my view, is this: An act meets the standard of cultural appropriation if, as a result of the act, the original culture is obscured or compromised or replaced by the version being promoted or portrayed by the appropriating party.

So…Taco Bell, Taco John’s, Del Taco and every other fast-food Mexican place are guilty of appropriation?

[TriPolar]

@Machine_Elf

Curry chips (fries) are quite popular in Ireland, but I doubt many chippers bother to let their customers know that curry originally came from India.

Curry is not a thing unless you mean this. Curry powder is not a specific thing and was originally made in India for English traders to sell elsewhere. It’s a terrible example of cultural appropriation.

[Novelty_Bobble]

@Miller

I haven’t seen that episode of the show, and I’m not British, so maybe “plaited loaf” is the standard term for it in the UK

Plaited loafs have a long history in the UK and elsewhere and aren’t specifically jewish.

[Miller]

@silenus

So…Taco Bell, Taco John’s, Del Taco and every other fast-food Mexican place are guilty of appropriation?

That… sounds about right to me? But I’d also apply it to McDonalds and Pizza Hut in equal measure. It seems to me that the complaints about the blandness and homogenization of corporate franchise culture share a lot in common with complaints about cultural appropriation.

[Odesio]

@Thudlow_Boink

What sort of attribution on a menu is required?

I expect Chicago Manual of Style complete with footnotes and an annotated bibliography.

[puzzlegal]

I’m often troubled by the term “cultural appropriation”, because i think we are all richer when we share good stuff. So mostly i think it’s good when one group uses something they like from another culture.

You want to adapt a tamale recipe and make something delicious that’s a little different? More power to you. That thread about the guy who wanted to put holy scriptures on his doorposts and bless his house, who investigated mezuzot? That’s my cultural tradition, and i felt warm and fuzzy that he wanted to adapt it.

I do think it’s just as well that he didn’t actually use a kosher scroll inked by an Orthodox Jewish scribe for use by Jews. Not because it would offend me, but it might have offended the scribe, since it was used to praise Jesus, considered a false God by many Orthodox Jews.

But i like this:

@Little_Nemo

So I guess my rule is that it’s okay to use things from other cultures as long as you treat them with the same respect that people of that culture would.

I do think it’s offensive to take a holy relic from some other group and use it to wipe you butt, to take an extreme example. I don’t think it’s offensive to wear dreads, or saris, or Western suits.

I also liked this thought:

@Cervaise

But the bottom line, though, in my view, is this: An act meets the standard of cultural appropriation if, as a result of the act, the original culture is obscured or compromised or replaced by the version being promoted or portrayed by the appropriating party. If the people of the original culture are able to carry on without their practices being marginalized or mutated by the influence of a stronger outside portrayal, if they are still able to represent their original culture fully and freely alongside the inauthentic alternative, then, for me, I would hesitate before using the appropriation label

Regarding the corn rows, honestly, i think if enough privileged white women wore them at work, it would make it easier for Black women to wear them. (And when my kid was little, her Black babysitter put her hair in corn rows because…i dunno, i suppose that’s what she thought was good to do with a little girl’s hair. It sure was easy to maintain, and kept the hair out of food and stuff.)

Anyway, i love the look of henna painted on skin. I’ve had it done twice, by Indians, and i hope it didn’t offend anyone. But that seems like a custom worth appropriating in a good way. I hope.