For that matter, is it appropriation when Chinese chefs “American-ize” dishes? Can you appropriate your own culture?
Every custom everywhere, pretty much, was at some point borrowed or modified based on other people’s customary practices. That doesn’t mean that the concept of “cultural appropriation” has no meaning whatsoever, but it does mean that it’s impossible to define it precisely or make one-size-fits-all rules about it.
I think a lot of people mistake fashion for culture.
I think it’s also worth pointing out that most everything was “borrowed” from someone else. It’s simply a question of proximity.
I’m now picturing myself drunkenly throwing a punch at some loudmouth who ducks and pivots upon grabbing my wrist for to flip me over his hip and slam me onto the floor.
“BEFORE WE WRAP THIS UP,” he shouts, “I FEEL OBLIGATED TO ATTRIBUTE THAT JUDO MOVE TO JAPAN. CAN YOU PLEASE ACKNOWLEDGE THAT? BECAUSE I’M ABOUT TO START CHOKING YOU — AND, BEFORE YOU PASS OUT, I WANT US TO BE ON THE SAME PAGE.”
I recall now that Bruce Lee faced some obstacles with learning martial arts because he was 1/4 German - and also was criticized for teaching martial arts to non-Asians:
I’m not saying you can’t do that; what I’m saying is that if you do, at least call it a tamale.
It’s kind of like how they call the tortillas that go around what are basically salad burritos “wraps” instead of tortillas. They’re using tortillas, but not actually calling them that for some unknown reason.
Pizza Hut, Taco Bell, and Domino’s at least are calling their products pizza. This is more what I’m talking about. “Grilled Artisan Flatbreads”? Those are pizzas by nearly any reasonable definition.
I guess i think that dozens of cultures have used thin bread to wrap fillings, and i am not offended if your call your bread tortilla, or pita, or wrap, or flat bread, or something else.
You might ask, say, Native Americans what they think.
A few years ago there was a Twitter flap when somebody claimed Hilliary Clinton was appropriating black culture by carrying hot sauce in her purse, but their angle was “It’s cultual appropriation by any race to use hot sauce because hot sauce is a black thing only”.
Which is the danger of calling cultural appropriation when you yourself culturally appropriate.
99.99% agree. Well said.
I cut a little slack at the extreme edge where Star Trek fantasy comes into play. Noting that people often do not separate a work of fantasy in its supposed details from reality. They should. But if the premise is supposed factual, even in fantasy realm, then tighten it up.
Which native americans? about what? to what end?
As I don’t believe that anyone has exclusive claims to cultural entities, what exactly would I be asking?
There is no single identifiable origin for a flat, grain based bread item. It is possible that it is middle eastern but it is so wide-spread that any one culture trying to claim it is on a hiding to nothing.
I don’t know about the specific ones in your link , but there are lots of different types of flatbread - and whether they are “pizza by any reasonable definition” depends on exactly what that definition is. If your definition of pizza is " a flat bread that can have toppings placed on it" , then, sure any kind of flat, grain-based product fits, including matzo. On the other hand, if your definition of “pizza” involves a dough that is leavened, baked immediately after being shaped rather than being left to rise again and has the toppings placed on top of the dough before baking it, then a lot of “flatbreads” ( including focaccia) won’t meet your definition of “pizza”.
Then you’d get, at the very least, people complaining that they aren’t “real” tamales or tortillas unless they have these special ingredients or are made in a certain way. Not saying that would happen with them in particular but it does happen with other things. Heck, there might even be “cultural appropriation” noises made if they do call it by its original name because they’re diluting the strength of the original brand so people will get confused and they’re making a buck on the backs of previous innovators. Which is not an argument I’d buy into but it’s difficult to not be accused of CA if you reference other cultures at all. But of course that is not always a huge problem, since despite the loudness and inevitability of such charges, it may only be a few hundred people who actually care.
I had incredibly good falafel at a restaurant once, that was listed on the menu as “chickpea fritters”. I asked why they didn’t call it falafel, and the server said it was so people weren’t disappointed when it wasn’t what they expected. And indeed, the fritters we’re smaller and crunchier than your typical falafel, and the sandwich had non-traditional fillings with the falafels. Seemed reasonable to me.
This is a tricky issue because, to my mind at least, a lot depends on intention, and intention cannot be scrutinized reliably. If your intention is to mock the culture or the symbol itself by using it, then you suck. But if your use is based on the fact you find it cool or beautiful or appealing or just useful, and your intent is to take some of that coolness or whatever and attach it to you, then that should be OK. Even if it is taking parts of your holy scripture and re-purposing it. Even if your tattoos are sacred to your culture and other people who are not part of your culture wear them. Just don’t tell people you are part of that culture.
What would be very wrong is to take a symbol from some other culture and associate it with your culture to rob the original culture of its meaning. Like the Nazis did with the swastika.
I’m still not 100% clear on my feelings on this issue, but am working my way through it.
Wait, what? I must have totally missed this. Guess that means I’m Black because I’ve been carrying hot sauce with me while traveling for decades, just in self-defense.
You never know when bland food will attack.
Since when is hot sauce a black thing only?
There’s so much overlap in food traditions in the South that it’s hard to really say what is black or white, with certain exceptions rooted in price/availability.
I mean, my grandmother would not have appreciated anyone describing her collard greens as “soul food”, but for all intents and purposes they were the same dish.
I think that @Isamu has a point in that intention is key, and there’s no real way to gauge that consistently. I think that if you’re using elements of someone else’s culture in a cynical/self-serving fashion, that qualifies as cultural appropriation. Taking someone else’s cuisine and culture when you’re not part of that culture and trying to make a buck off of it would qualify. Being a politician and doing things from other cultures/ethnic groups as a form of virtue signaling would qualify (if indeed Hillary Clinton had carried hot sauce as a political prop, not as a legitimate food seasoning).
But if you genuinely like the culture/product/whatever, and you’re consuming it/wearing it/whatever out of admiration, then that’s fine- good even.
That said, sometimes that cynical make-a-buck form of cultural appropriation can be the icebreaker in some places. If some white guy was to open a say… Indian restaurant in some part of the country without a significant Indian eastern population, and the restaurant leans in hard to a bunch of stereotypes and what-not with the naming, decor, etc… it would be cultural appropriation, but it would also be exposure to something different, which is almost never a bad thing.
Yeah really a topped flat bread or a floppy grain holder for fillings is not exclusively a pizza or a tortilla. Parallel evolutions.
It’s kind of tricky but really, it can’t be an absolute binary all or nothing thing. Especially since many of our different cultures are themselves syncretic and an assemblage of prior appropriations and “borrowings”. The key is, traditionally that happened “organically” as people lived along each other.
The iffy part about it is, as others have said, the using it as mere “fashion” AND an especially problematic instance when some “adopters” have no idea what they are adopting (the trope about “you realize your tattoo is upside down and actually reads ‘do not insert in ear canal’?”) or then tell other “outsiders” what that cultural reference means.
Then there’s also when members of the adopting group engage in unsolicited White-Knighting or policing, while they are also getting it wrong.
Oh, that was a hoot. So transparently an artificial composite.