Expecting me to change my behaviour when it neither breaks your bones nor picks your pocket is just as antisocial.
Have a guess what I expect of people when what they do or say offends me?
There may be. I wouldn’t be one of them.
If people want to complain about an actual item that was stolen from them (rather than bought or gifted) then that is a completely different matter.
You can’t “steal” a fashion or an idea or a recipe or a language in any meaningful way.
It is the difference between someone 3d printing a copy of the Rosetta stone and putting it on display v taking the real thing.
Nope. I opened a can of something and cooked it in a way that drew a few spice and ingredient influences from the place where the product came from, but also using some ingredients that were local to me. I was ignorant of the full scope of use of the ingredient, so I used it in a way that seemed to make sense to me (which was one of the ways it is used, but I didn’t discuss the others, because I didn’t know them). It was nice. I enjoyed it (and I said so), but apparently this constitutes ‘cooking in a racist way’
Indeed - the problem is that they are the majority of voices and the loudest ones on the topic, and this may tend to create an impression that everyone who has a complaint, has a complaint that is spurious. - obviously that’s not true, but it skews the whole issue.
So, you extend this attitude to, say, people using the N-word or other racial/ethnic/gender/etc. slurs? Or any other type of slurs, for that matter?
Nobody should be expected to change their behavior if others find it inconsiderate or insulting, as long as they’re not actually being physically assaulted or financially defrauded by it?
Yeah, that’s a completely stupid and ridiculous attitude. Society can’t function if those are the ground rules, and in practice, the smugly privileged people who theoretically espouse those ground rules depend on other people treating them with much more consideration and respect than they claim to think necessary.
That betrays a fundamental misunderstanding of human society.
Your views are as transparent as they are uninteresting, and I’ve no particular interest in guessing at them.
Certainly some complaints are of that nature. Others aren’t. Believing that every complaint of cultural appropriation should result in a change in behavior would be just as silly as Novelty’s blithe disregard of the whole idea. The truth is a little more nuanced than that.
And i think Mangetout is aware of that:
I’m generally in favor of cultural appropriation. Invent fusion cuisines and fashions, expand the reach of artistic styles. But i recognize there are sensitive issues to navigate in some cases. And I’m very much on team “emotional damage is damage”.
I might rank things something like this, in order from “most obnoxious” to “most innocuous”. I might change my mind about a few of these rankings compared to one another, though.
- A White dude writes a book called The Teachings of Don Juan: A Yaqui Way of Knowledge, claiming to describe the spiritual traditions of a real culture of indigenous people. It’s totally fictionalized, but he claims it’s real, and promotes it as nonfiction. His fans tell actual members of the Yaqui culture that they are wrong when they claim that it’s fiction.
- A company travels to a remote area where they talk with the impoverished indigenous people about their traditional medicine. They gather samples of the plants that the indigenous people use and make salves out of them, marketing them as “Ancient Wisdom salve as used by the native people of area X.” They make a pretty profit off of these salves. None of the profits make their way back to the indigenous people who taught them which plants they used.
- A company with no ties to Native culture offers Traditional Native Sweat Lodges for pay, taking a sacred cultural tradition and turning it into an exotic spa treatment for rich folks.
- A shop sells traditional masks from around the world, including masks used in religious rituals, as wall hangings.
- A school throws a Pagoda Party, encouraging their students to dress as ninjas and samurai.
- A couple of white ladies claim they peeked through the windows of Mexican ladies to learn how to make tortillas, and then open their tortilleria in a White section of town.
- A White person buys a cookbook on Japanese cuisine written by a White person and makes sushi.
- A White person buys a cookbook on Japanese cuisine written by a Japanese person and makes sushi.
By the time you get to the end of the list, I really can’t be bothered to be bothered. The stuff at the top of the list is pretty freaking obnoxious.
But discussing either end of the list by itself is pretty distorting.
True–I saw his later post after I’d composed most of mine.
You remind me of another really obnoxious example of cultural appropriation. A man approaches an indigenous group with a dying language, and offers to help them preserve and teach it. They invest many hours teaching him their language, and he builds an app to teach it. He copyrights everything he made, and not only does he not share the profits with the people who taught him, he charges their children to use it.
(In the mean time, some of the elders who invested in teaching him, rather than others, have died of old age.)
This is a real story, although my source is a friend, and i might be misremembering details. But i hope we can all agree that’s a dispicable form of cultural appropriation.
I think not. I manage to live perfectly well in society without coming into conflict with people.
Are you ever offended by something that another person does? What do you expect that person to do about it?
No need to guess. The things that people do that offend me, I ignore. Let them get on with it.
The only one on the list that I see as obnoxious is the first one, because someone promised to do something and didn’t keep their end of the deal. But that would be the same for any situation regardless of the culture involved.
Same as above, if someone breaks their end of the bargain it is obnoxious, regardless of the cultural element involved.
I notice you didn’t address my inconvenient question about specific examples of offensive behavior that, according to your disdainful freezepeachery, nobody should be expected to change:
No I think directing insulting speech at people with malicious intent is a bad thing. I’d advise against it and ask them to stop. Down with that sort of thing.
What this thread is about is cultural appropriation and what a person may do within that remit that another may find “offensive”. No-one has raised insulting speech as an example of cultural appropriation. Feel free to start a thread about insulting and malicious speech and I’d be happy to comment on it there.
I see, so sometimes it is okay to expect someone to change their behavior even though it neither breaks anybody else’s bones or picks anybody else’s pocket.
You just happen to be the arbiter of exactly what behavioral acts it is or isn’t reasonable to expect a person to change when somebody else is offended by them. Convenient.
This thread is about the concept of cultural appropriation, not insulting and harrasment through speech.
Yes, my expectation of behavioural moderation and condemnation changes if you completely change the subject we are discussing,
For me? yes. Damn sure I don’t want anyone else telling me what food I can cook, what music I can play, what clothes I can wear etc.
Others are also free to be as offended as they like and are free to make their own decisions.
This. IMHO some of the people who complain about cultural appropriation from non-white cultures are probably the same type of people as described by Kimstu. These types of people, whether white people complaining about a Black Little Mermaid, or the equivalent type of person from non-white cultures, tends to complicate the matter and drown out those with a legitimate grievance.
I think it’s fair to say that I am aware that I feel a tendency to disregard or dismiss claims of cultural appropriation, and I think this is probably a view that has been jaundiced by the noise level. IOW I think my view may be in need of adjustment or refinement, which is difficult to do owing to all the noise.
I have previously used the word “offenderati” in the same way. I think it’s in more common use.