Where do you stand on the Bill Maher/Ben Affleck argument?

[iiandyiiii]

@Robert163

Not the point!!!

How do you account for the fact that in Westernized countries, with human rights and democracy, Islam is a relatively benign entity, BUT, in places where Muslims are the majority, they, as you say, “treat some groups of people badly very much of the time”. Where they can exercise such excessive, violent power, they do. How is this not indicative of a very, very, very, very bad system of thought?

Because these are false assumptions. It’s false that “in places where Muslims are the majority” they do these things. In some places they do, but in some places they don’t. They don’t in Dearborn MI. They don’t in Indonesia, for the most part. They don’t in parts of Iran, and parts of Morocco. They don’t in parts of India and Bangladesh.

[Robert163]

@iiandyiiii

I absolutely disagree, if those choices include things like religious beliefs or adult sexual partners. Bigotry against people in interracial couples, which is definitely a choice, is definitely wrong.

I don’t mean choices like murder and rape, obviously.

So, what you are saying is, it is more important to you to correct people when they say “Saudi’s stone people to death right out int he street”… yo’d rather spend your time trying to get them to say “some Saudi’s will stone you to death for adultery” instead of focusing on how incredibly f_ucked up of a country it is where that could even happen at all.

[Robert163]

@iiandyiiii

Because these are false assumptions. It’s false that “in places where Muslims are the majority” they do these things. In some places they do, but in some places they don’t. They don’t in Dearborn MI. They don’t in Indonesia, for the most part. They don’t in parts of Iran, and parts of Morocco. They don’t in parts of India and Bangladesh.

How many times do we have to say, we are not talking about Dearborn Michigan or Indonesia. I am talking about:

Libya
Somalia
Tunisia
Yemen
Oman
UAE
Saudi Arabia
Jordan
Lebanon
Turkey
Syria
Iraq
Iran
Afghanistan
Pakistan

[iiandyiiii]

@Snowboarder_Bo

Right, and one of the geopolitial circumstances of the Middle East is that a large number of people are followers of a book with some nasty instructions that they believe and are willing, even eager, to follow.

The fact that there is another book that also urges people to do bad shit doesn’t mean the Koran doesn’t exhort followers to do bad shit. And the immediate problem is that too many people, IMO, are trying to do the bad shit they are directed to do by the Koran. And to them, they are directed by the single most powerful force in all of existence to do these things, since the Koran is, like the Bible is to Christians, the words of their god.

So the Koran is special, in that at this moment in history, it’s the only book with those instructions to followers that has large numbers of followers willing and eager to carry out those instructions.

The Koran is being used to justify political recriminations; politics isn’t being used to justify Islamic recriminations.

There’s nothing about what’s in the Koran that’s special. It’s not special or unusual that it’s being used to justify bad stuff. And these bad “instructions” are interpreted in different ways, including mostly peaceful ways (like “Jihad means fighting against poverty, sickness, suffering, etc.” which I’ve heard from moderate Imams) by some groups of Muslims.

It’s the geopolitical circumstances that are special, not the Koran.

[iiandyiiii]

@Robert163

So, what you are saying is, it is more important to you to correct people when they say “Saudi’s stone people to death right out int he street”… yo’d rather spend your time trying to get them to say “some Saudi’s will stone you to death for adultery” instead of focusing on how incredibly f_ucked up of a country it is where that could even happen at all.

No, that’s not what I’m saying.

[iiandyiiii]

@Robert163

How many times do we have to say, we are not talking about Dearborn Michigan or Indonesia. I am talking about:

Libya
Somalia
Tunisia
Yemen
Oman
UAE
Saudi Arabia
Jordan
Lebanon
Turkey
Syria
Iraq
Iran
Afghanistan
Pakistan

Why is Turkey still there? I’ve noticed you’ve left off the current home of my sister-in-law, Morocco, as well.

[Robert163]

@iiandyiiii

No, that’s not what I’m saying.

Right, you’re not really SAYING anything at all. You’re just telling us we are all bigots and ignoring all of the facts.

[Robert163]

@iiandyiiii

Why is Turkey still there? I’ve noticed you’ve left off the current home of my sister-in-law, Morocco, as well.

Really???

What about the other 15 countries on the list???

I never said anyone got stoned to death in Turkey. My point is, if you were a female, atheist, homosexual, where would you rather live, Turkey (the most enlightened country on the list) or USA or Sweden or France?

[iiandyiiii]

@Robert163

Right, you’re not really SAYING anything at all. You’re just telling us we are all bigots and ignoring all of the facts.

No, I haven’t done this.

[iiandyiiii]

@Robert163

I never said anyone got stoned to death in Turkey. My point is, if you were a female, atheist, homosexual, where would you rather live, Turkey (the most enlightened country on the list) or USA or Sweden or France?

If you insist I play this silly game which has nothing to do with any of my points, then I’ll choose Turkey, for the Doner kebab.

[Robert163]

@iiandyiiii

There’s nothing about what’s in the Koran that’s special. It’s not special or unusual that it’s being used to justify bad stuff. And these bad “instructions” are interpreted in different ways, including mostly peaceful ways (like “Jihad means fighting against poverty, sickness, suffering, etc.” which I’ve heard from moderate Imams) by some groups of Muslims.

It’s the geopolitical circumstances that are special, not the Koran.

1- Well, no offense, but unless you’ve really studied the book, how do you know if it is really bad or if it is good?

2- I mean, a book that is good in lieu of ignoring all the bad parts, is that really what we consider good?

[MOIDALIZE]

@Robert163

1- I meant, have you visited the country or have you read up on cosmopolitan life in Iran.

I’ve been there about as many times as you have.

2- If there are a few areas in the country where an Atheist, homosexual, female could live openly, what that really means is, that in most of the country, they couldn’t. which kind of proves my point to begin with.

Black people can’t live openly in NYC or Ferguson, MO without getting harassed by the cops. Does this mean life in the US for African-Americans is uniformly negative?

[Robert163]

@iiandyiiii

If you insist I play this silly game which has nothing to do with any of my points, then I’ll choose Turkey, for the Doner kebab.

So in other words, my point is solid and you want to call it playing games. I’m making a straightforward example that fits a real world example. That’s not “playing games”.

[iiandyiiii]

@Robert163

1- Well, no offense, but unless you’ve really studied the book, how do you know if it is really bad or if it is good?

2- I mean, a book that is good in lieu of ignoring all the bad parts, is that really what we consider good?

1. I’ve studied it.

2. It sucks. So does the Bible. So do all other religious texts that I’ve ever come across. They all suck, in my opinion, both as teachings of how the world works and how people should behave.

[iiandyiiii]

@Robert163

So in other words, my point is solid and you want to call it playing games. I’m making a straightforward example that fits a real world example. That’s not “playing games”.

Your point is not solid and has nothing to do with what I’m saying.

[Robert163]

@MOIDALIZE

I’ve been there about as many times as you have.

Black people can’t live openly in NYC or Ferguson, MO without getting harassed by the cops. Does this mean life in the US for African-Americans is uniformly negative?

I’m pretty sure life is uniformly negative for females, homosexuals and atheists in all of these countries:

Libya
Somalia
Tunisia
Yemen
Oman
UAE
Saudi Arabia
Syria
Iraq
Iran
Afghanistan
Pakistan

Bad but not as bad as above:
Egypt
Jordan
Lebanon
Turkey

Can you make the case that if you were female, homosexual and atheist, you’d pick any one of the above countries to live in before you’d pick USA, Sweden or France?

[MOIDALIZE]

@Robert163

I’m pretty sure life is uniformly negative for females, homosexuals and atheists in all of these countries:

You’re pretty sure, huh? Based on what?

[Snowboarder_Bo]

@iiandyiiii

Have you read his most recent posts?

I have, and I still am not seeing anything in his posts that approaches anything that could reasonably be called bigotry. You are, as Richard Parker mentioned, ignoring context completely where said context does not support your view of bigotry, IMO.

@iiandyii

I’ll repeat what I said earlier: I think this is the big point of contention here. There’s nothing in the Koran that’s worse than some specific text in the Bible. The holy texts and religious practices could be swapped wholesale, and people could just as easily find religious justification in the Bible for terrorism, oppressing women, death to apostates, etc., as in the Koran. The Koran is not special. The geopolitical circumstances of the Middle East are special.

And the fact that it’s THIS book and not THAT book is special too. If they used Huckleberry Finn to justify their violence, I’d want to take a look at what that book said, too, and denounce as shitty and immoral any shitty and immoral directives it contained. But they don’t use Huckleberry Finn, they use the Koran.

@iiandyii

No, they definitely said it, according to the poll. And they’re very troublingly wrong.

They don’t believe what they said they believe? WTF? How do you know that?? :?

@iiandyii

Maybe it’s inflection and context. Sometimes “some” is probably implied and I just miss it.

Okay, let’s try this: I do not want to kill or destroy all Muslims. I do want to speak out against and criticize those Muslims who do want to kill or destroy me and/or my country, my society, my culture and my civilization. IF I now fail to specify “those Muslims who do want to kill or destroy me and/or my country, my society, my culture and my civilization”, will you please extend a perception of good faith and understand that my failure to offer qualifying and clarifying phrases was not, in any way, meant to extend my criticism past those who I have already stipulated are the subject of my disagreements?

@iiandyii

These are examples of the implied “some”, I believe. If “some” is implied, then it’s probably not false and bigoted. Bill Maher (and others) have said it in a way that I believe did not include that implied “some”.

I believe that failure to perceive that is entirely on you; Bill Maher, like the posters you’ve currently been engaging, made it clear over and over that he was not talking about 100% of Muslims.

@iiandyii

It’s a religious ideology, and there are definitely political ideologies that spring up from certain forms if Islam, but Islam is not a politicial ideology like communism. Comparing them sounds like those Oklahoma wackjobs who say “Islam is not a religion, it’s a political ideology, therefore it doesn’t deserve 1st amendment protection”.

I never said that Islam was a political idealogy. No one did. I did say it is an idealogy, and it is. Most of your last paragraph there is you arguing against strawmen in your head and not against anything anyone actually said.

If you don’t see any reason to examine an idealogy’s effect on the people who espouse adherence to said idealogy, then again, IMO, you’re going to have a difficult time communicating effectively in this discussion.

[Robert163]

@iiandyiiii

Your point is not solid and has nothing to do with what I’m saying.

Why so much effort to avoid the point. Just answer the question. If you were a female, homosexual, Atheist, would you rather live in a country from Group A or Group B:

Group A
Libya
Somalia
Tunisia
Yemen
Oman
UAE
Saudi Arabia
Jordan
Lebanon
Turkey
Syria
Iraq
Iran
Afghanistan
Pakistan

Group B
USA
Sweden
France
UK
Canada

[Novelty_Bobble]

@Snowboarder_Bo

Well, IMO, bigotry against choices people make is fine. Do you disagree with that?

I’m out of this one, I don’t think I’m making any headway and after typing the same thing three times I’m guessing it isn’t going to sink it, but before I go I going to disagree with the above.

I’m not bothered about any choice that* anyone* makes, not the thoughts they hold in their head or the beliefs that keep them warm. It matters not one jot to me.
However, the moment someone chooses to act on those opinions and cause harm, distress or misery to another person then damn right I’ll be against it.

And if they hold up a religious justification for it I’ll say “fuck you”, loudly and longly. That isn’t a free pass.