Where does the obsession about the US nuclear stockpile and it's current state come from?

I was having a long conversation with friends and family this weekend. I noticed a trend from the more (modern I suppose) conservative people during this conversation It hinged around our nuclear arsenal in the US. Basically, it went something like this: We don’t know if our nuclear arsenal actually works, haven’t done any development on new weapons in ages and are falling hopelessly behind the Chinese and Russians who are developing new nuclear weapons while the US isn’t doing enough. I pointed out what the US spends annually compared to other powers and the fact that this isn’t exactly new technology here, and that you don’t actually need bigger bombs when you have more precise systems that also can carry multiple warheads, and, of course, the fact that no one besides the rogue state North Korea is actually doing much physical testing, that we all use computer models and simulations. I got a lot of blank looks and heated argument about how we aren’t developing new bombs and how Russia and China are way ahead of us.

Mind, this wasn’t about new nuclear delivery systems…I specifically asked, since I know both China and Russia are touting their work on new hyper-sonic missile systems supposedly able to defeat US anti-ballistic missile systems as well as early warning systems. They were actually talking about the business end, the nuclear weapons themselves, and claiming not only is the US falling hopelessly behind in development but we don’t have any idea whether what we have will work, and in fact we haven’t been doing much to maintain the weapons we have.

This is completely contrary to reality as I know it, and there are a ton of flaws in the logic being used (which I argued for hours to no avail…they knew what they knew and since I’m not a nuclear physicist the rejoinder most commonly used was ‘you aren’t a physicist and don’t know’). What I’m looking for is, where does this seeming obsession on the subject come from, and why the fixation on it? I was thinking it was Trump, since he seems to be fairly clueless about nuclear weapons and I’ve heard some similar things in the various speeches I was able to stomach, but it seems pretty wide spread in the new generation of US conservatives that this stuff is fact. Sadly, when I ask these folks for a cite they just look at me blankly, and when I Google aspects to show them they dismiss it or say ‘we don’t really know’ as if that’s an answer.

Typical RW media fear mongering. Get people worked up about anything other than what the people they voted for are actually doing.

I knew tons of people in grad school that worked on weapons development, either directly or indirectly. Lots of professors got funding from Los Alamos and sent their grad students there for summer internships (it’s administered by the University of California).

I think your long conversation over the weekend with a few friends and family is not representative of conservative views generally. I think the state of our nuclear weapons is a long ways from an “obsession” or “fixation”, and certainly not a top priority for conservatives. It might get mentioned occasionally but is a tertiary, or at best secondary concern among conservatives generally.

Although development and expansion of the nuclear arsenal has occurred under administration of both parties (authorization of the LGM-34 ‘Minuteman’-land based ICBM occurred under Kennedy and the troubled WS-120 “Missile Experimental” (MX) program which eventually became the LGM-118A ‘Peacekeeper’ was finally authorized under Carter although eventually deployed under Reagan), it has become a talking point among neoconservatives that maintaining a vast nuclear arsenal and the nuclear triad are crucial not only to strategic deterrence but to maintaing the status of the USA as the dominant superpower. I don’t think it makes much sense in any practical, evidential sense any more than the wholesale revulsion toward immigration reform, fear over recognition of LGBTQ rights, or the contradictory belief in the value of free markets while promoting the dubious merits of a tariff-based trade war, but if we’re being honest, for conservative voters it is about ideological identity rather than any factual benefit. However, for wealthy corporate backers of policy ‘think tanks’ it makes a lot of sense insofar as they want to get the government to pay them for extracting the expensive low-grade uranium ore and all of the enrichment activites to build weapons since most nations will not sell uranium to the US to be used for weapons manufacture.

In our Enduring Stockpile we have been downgrading and retiring older weapons that are not single point safe, have fire-resistant pits, or insensitive high explosive in the implosion lenses. That leaves newer versions of the W-61 (used in various gravity bomb and retired cruise missile applications), W-87 (formerly in the Peacekeeper Mark 21 reentry vehicle, now mounted on remaining Minuteman III ICBMs), and the W-88 (on the Trident II D-5 Fleet Ballistic Missile SLBMs) largely in Active Service with others in the Hedge Stockpile (not installed in a delivery system but maintained and available for immediate service), as well as a smattering of other weapons in the Inactive Reserve. None of the newer weapons have been tested in toto; explosive lens assemblies and trigger systems are tested, and there has been limited testing of pits, but the overall reliability and performance of these weapons is based upon simulation and aging surveillance testing. For some, this equates to a lack of testing and amazingly there is still a contingent of advocates who are agitating for a resumption in underground testing of whole physics package assemblies. The Reliable Replacement Warhead program, intended to provide a next generation of highly failsafe weapons, was cancelled a few years ago due to cost overruns and a perceived lack of need, and quite frankly, we no longer have the infrastructure to manufacture nuclear weapon materials on a production scale.

This article in Foreign Policy from 2009 makes some interesting points, and while I don’t necessary fully agree with their conclusions it makes a case for why we don’t need to rebuild the infrastructure to produce nuclear weapons, nor engage in deliberate attempts to negotaite arms reductions with existing nuclear powers (although preventing proliferation should still be a key priority in foreign policy for a multitude of reasons). From the article:
*Instead, nukes have done nothing in particular, and have done that very well. They have, however, succeeded in being a colossal waste of money — an authoritative 1998 Brookings Institution study showed the United States had spent $5.5 trillion on nukes since 1940, more than on any program other than Social Security. The expense was even more ludicrous in the cash-starved Soviet Union.

And that does not include the substantial loss entailed in requiring legions of talented nuclear scientists, engineers, and technicians to devote their careers to developing and servicing weapons that have proved to have been significantly unnecessary and essentially irrelevant. In fact, the only useful part of the expenditure has been on devices, protocols, and policies to keep the bombs from going off, expenditures that would, of course, not be necessary if they didn’t exist.*
For what it is worth, although Russia has been on a tear developing new delivery systems and maneuvering reentry vehicles that very likely can defeat current or any proposed anti-ballistic missile defense systems, it is highly unlikely that they can fund mass production and sustained deployment without bankrupting their country, and in fact it was the buildup of a large nuclear arsenal in the late ‘Sixties through the ‘Seventies (which finally lead to the supposed “missile gap” that Kennedy campaigned to the White House on in 1960) which helped to contribute to the economic failings of the Soviet Union. China has never shown the ambition to have an overwhelmingly large nuclear arsenal; they have a relatively modest sized arsenal of weapons in protected missiles and delivery systems suitable for general strategic deterrence without subscribing to the sort of overwhelming counterforce strategy of the the US-USSR “Cold War”.

Nobody is going to “win” in a nuclear exchange regardless of the size and modernity of their nuclear stockpile, and spending trillions more dollars standing up a new manufacturing infrastructure and building new weapons (not to mention the attendant environmental contamination problems with mining, refining, and processing uranium into weapons grade materials) makes no sense whatsoever. The existing weapons provide a reasonable sized arsenal, albeit at what is still a very high cost for maintenance, and the effort should be toward ensuring that there is never call to consider using it.

Stranger

A while back, I came across something that i really liked: “In theory, theory and practice are the same, but in practice, they’re not.”

In other words, just because a big old honkin’ computer SAYS that a certain design of bomb will do such-and-such when it explodes, doesn’t actually guarantee that any such thing will happen when or if a bomb of that type is actually used.

While this may be true, it is reasonable to assume certain things will happen in engineering when previous research and demonstration have all shown it will happen.

The Boeing 777 was the world’s first passenger airliner to be completely designed by computer, for instance. Yet before the airplane even took its first flight, it was entirely reasonable for Boeing engineers to assume that the plane would take off and fly like an airplane - i.e., that the wings would generate lift as wings always have, that the engines would provide enough thrust to generate speed, etc.

In the real world, shit goes wrong that we didn’t plan for or simulate correctly often enough that I think there’s some level of reasonable concern about how accurately the computer modeling may have captured all the potential variables, but it’s low enough that I’m confident we could still nuke any country on Earth 'til it glows in the dark.

Or to paraphrase a quote from the movie Dirty Harry: A gun is pointed at your head. There’s a chance it is *not *loaded. Do you like your chances?

If one is a nation about to get nuked by America, the knowledge that there *might *be engineering defects in the incoming nuclear warheads will be of no comfort or reassurance whatsoever.

That reminds me of a way-too-graphic video I saw over the weekend from some idiots fooling around with a gun on Facebook Live.

I generally give limited weight to people setting up fish in a barrel with “I was talking to some X’s (conservatives, liberals, Americans etc) and they made the following silly argument” :slight_smile:

But here also you eventually you clarify that ‘the conservatives’ were not talking about nuclear delivery systems (although in fact that’s a big factor in arguably legitimate concern about the US nuclear arsenal, whether particular people you know think so or not). But that then tends to invalidate your own point ‘what the US spends annually compared to…’ The bulk of US defense spending is for non-nuclear military capability, besides nuclear delivery systems, only a small % is for warheads. Nor are there are accurate figures for what other powers spend on nuclear warheads per se. Or how many they produce. China’s production is widely debated for example. And like any such comparison in the defense realm some of high US spending is simply because it costs more to do many things in the US. That’s a real problem in various defense areas, but can’t easily be solved by outsourcing the work to rival powers who can do it for less.

A better point is that the drawbacks of not doing end to end tests of nuclear warheads apply to the other major nuclear powers as much as the US.

However there are arguably legitimate concerns even just for warheads. In recent years the US has lacked the demonstrated ability to produce new ‘pits’ for warheads due to previous policies, and safety issues at LANL. It’s planning to put back in place assured capability and resume steady production, using a lot of money in absolute terms but not a significant % of the defense let alone whole federal budget. Arguably that’s not needed, but it’s not imaginary that the capability effectively lapsed.

Assuming knowledgeable people on both sides, not ‘X’s I know’, it’s not obvious there’s no reason for concern about the US nuclear posture. And if the debaters exclude delivery systems then they don’t know what they are talking about, which lots of people don’t, left and right. But it’s premature to set off determining what causes the ‘delusion’ of a problem with the US nuclear posture. It can be reasonably debated whether there is one.

I hope this doesn’t come across as a hijack, but I’m curious (and there seem to be some knowledgeable posters here that might know the answer): could we launch a ICBM far enough away from Earth that we could test the warhead (detonate it) without any of the harmful effects (EMP, radiation, etc) of traditional tests affecting Earth or our satellites?

The issue isn’t so much that the warheads haven’t been tested at all- they have. The W88 and before warheads were all tested back in the early 1990s in their development.

What we don’t know for sure, without actually testing them, is whether they’ll still work after decades of hanging around, and occasional rebuilds/recertifications.

The issue with testing them isn’t an environmental one, but rather a political one. Resuming testing would be seen as a pretty hostile act and a signal that we’re firing up a new arms race.

EMP effects occur because of interactions between the high energy gamma radiation and the mid to upper stratosphere. If a detonation occurred far away enough from the Earth there would be negligible radiation impingement on the atmosphere and no HEMP effects. However, this would require launching into upper MEO or above, which is a) expensive, b) will produce some amount of debris that would pose a hazard to other spacecraft, and c) may well produce an artificial particle radiation belt due to the ionization of particles in the Earth’s magnetic field. Measuring the yield might be a little complicated insofar as not being able to directly observe the thermal pulse of radiation absorbed by the atmosphere but the direct radiation output could be measured and used to estimate explosive yield.

However, there is very little reason to do this. The Enduring Stockpile of nuclear weapons is more than sufficient for any deterrent purpose, and there is an extensive and expensive program to assess aging effects on weapon components (not just the pit and tamper but the explosive lenses, initiators, et cetera). Even though a few states are attempting to proliferate, the major players have all progressively reduced or limited the size of their arsenals and, generally speaking, taken delivery systems off of high alert which provides some margin, if even just in a public perception sense, against the likelihood of some misunderstanding or accidential launch. We do not need to spend trillions of dollars it would cost to stand up a new mining and manufacturing infrastructure to build more nuclear weapons when there are a vast number of things we would be better off spending money on. The only conceivable reason for building new nuclear weapons would be to address and redirect a hazardous object in space that threatens impact with Earth. And while nuclear weapons require high precision and exotic materials, the actual mechanism of function is pretty simple. It was challenging to simulate the detonation of a nuclear weapon back in 1944 with adding machines and serial calculations, but any modern desktop computer can run a 2D hydrocode sufficient to simulate a thermonuclear fusion device which a knowlegeable person could actually produce from scratch using Matlab or NumPy.

Stranger

This isn’ really a left vs right issue. The concerns have been percolating out from DOD for a while.
editing to pull an individuals quotes out from direct quotes of the story; obviously prone to potential error

The individual saying those things was Obama’s last Secretary of Defense, Ash Carter. He was saying them in 2016.

Even if it wasn’t a part of what came up this weekend, delivery systems were part of the focus. Some of that’s seen above. The US under both the last two administrations has also been working on an improved long-range and intercontinental delivery systems as part of the Prompt Global Strike. That was for a conventional capability where accuracy was an even bigger deal since the warhead power was greatly reduced. One of the prototypes was a modified Minuteman III ICBM. Evven if it didn’t make the over dinner conversation accuracy has been part of the professional conversation.

Mostly those concerns about the Nuclear force haven’t gotten budgetary traction. First, we had two major counterinsurgency campaigns as a major driver for spending. Then the Budget Control Act of 2013 (aka the sequestration cuts) made funding extremely tight. Those budgets cuts forced significant force structure cuts. It also forced the abandonment of the capability to fight and win two simultaneous major regional conventional contingencies in conjunction with US regional partners. Even with hefty cuts to conventional capability the Obama administration, especially Ash Carter as SECDEF, was warning about needing more funding or even deeper cuts to maintain the quality of the forces levels they were keeping. With this years finally approved budget the BCA caps got overridden. It’s not entirely surprising that DOD, in a more budget-friendly environment, is dusting off programs they considered important but couldn’t fund.

There’s plenty of room to debate whether we should and the relative importance of modernizing our nuclear deterrent. The discussion might finally be getting some public traction on the political right after being ignored by the American populace for years. That may well be related to RW biased media picking it up and running with it. New DOD focus probably helped by giving them a story to pick up. It’s not just a partisan position pushed by Fox News watching neo-cons though…unless we redefine that category to include the Obama adminstration.

It was not meant to be either a gotcha thread or a ‘lets build up this strawman and then we can tear it down and sing kumbya’ type thread. Basically, most of the conservatives in the conversation were in a weird sort of lockstep and were saying the exact same things, so it got me wondering where that was coming from. I hadn’t heard this particular argument pitched in this particular way, and certainly not be several people at once.

True…however, that ‘small %’ for warheads is over $52 billion a year. That’s over half of Russia’s FULL defense budget, and it’s even a sizable portion of China’s. It’s not like we are doing the Russian post-cold war bit of just leaving the things in the ground and hoping for the best.

I actually made this exact point. Russia, who is the other major nuclear player, doesn’t do anymore active testing than we do, nor should the logic hold that they could make new nuclear weapons (without testing) any better than we can (and I pointed out that, as far as I know, they aren’t trying to develop newer, presumably bigger warheads at any rate, but instead working on delivery vehicles).

It basically fell on deaf ears because the folks arguing this are convinced we are falling behind, with lots of mutterings about how ‘we don’t really know’ what sort of tests Russia or China are doing…which I pointed out is pretty much bullshit, at least from an active testing perspective.

We don’t (at last afaik) need to do active testing however, which was my own point. I don’t know what the exact issue with ‘new ‘pits’’ is, but it’s hard to imagine that the US couldn’t make them if we wanted that capability…and hard to imagine that at this point we really need to unless the things deteriorate a lot more, even with maintenance and refurbishment, than I thought they did. I do agree that if this is the case then a modest funding to bring us back to some standard is in order, but a lot of the folks arguing were clearly talking about new development for more powerful warheads, which just doesn’t seem to have much point. Perhaps new warheads with longer shelf lives or something along those lines, but you just don’t need a bigger boom afaict.

I’d have to ask why is $50+ billion dollars a year not enough, and what, exactly is the issue, especially considering that the other major nuclear powers spend less than that annually on their nukes…including Russia who actually has a lot more deployed (in theory) than we do at any given time. I DID ask this, in fact.

I don’t claim to be that knowledgeable wrt the physics behind nukes…I have more knowledge about conventional weapons systems, though no expert there either. Perhaps I’m missing something here…wouldn’t be the first time. I’m still curious if this is something being said on Fox or some other conservative outlet. It just seemed interesting to me that so many people of a single political bent were all talking about such an obscure (relatively) subject and saying basically the same thing.

I tried to warn them, folks just don’t understand what a “BEST BY” date means, putting that on the nukes is a bad idea . . . but did they listen to me…

CMC fnord!

@ Mr. Stranger — is this $5.5 trillion mostly for delivery systems, or mostly for the bombs themselves? (All I see from Google is that each 700-pound B61 bomb would be much cheaper if it were just a replica made out of solid gold.)

If much or most of the $5.5 trillion is for the bombs, what about the following:

~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~
I wonder if those who want to test our nuclear bombs are the same crew who want to count the bricks of [del]gold[/del] gilt tungsten in Fort Knox and under Maiden Lane.

I don’t worry about America’s nuclear arsenal much unless the concern is whether or not the sitting American president is foolish enough to use them against an adversary that could use them on us. As bad as Trump is, I don’t think we’re quite there yet, and I would imagine intense push-back bordering on mutiny if he were to ever give such an order.

Putin is frustrated by the mounting pressures against his regime and he’s fighting against American power. He struck a blow to American democracy, but he’s still fighting against the effects of sanctions and political isolation, and this is one way, among many, he believes he can show the teeth of the Russian bear. Nothing has changed about our military reality: the US still has demonstrable capability to completely destroy much of Russia and China with nuclear missiles. And Russia (particularly) and also China have the ability to destroy much of the United States in return.

Russia’s recent obsession in showing its military capabilities have to do with its perceived disadvantage in the areas of missile defense systems. Yet in truth, the Pentagon has always known that even the old Soviet era nuclear arsenal could simply overwhelm missile defense systems. This is one reason why some analysts have argued against the installation of missile defense systems, particularly in the more politically sensitive areas of Eastern Europe and the old Soviet sphere of influence. Practically speaking, such defense systems don’t have much military value; they have the adverse impact of leading Russia to conclude that it’s at a disadvantage and therefore needs to compensate for this by upping its own military capabilities. The result of this is a new arms race. It seems that the concerns over missile defense are well-founded.

And he was talking about delivery systems and the command and control necessary to maintain a credible deterrent. He was not talking about the warheads themselves, which the OP very specifically was.

(Bolding mine.) DoD isn’t dusting off anything. The plans and funding for the Columbia class submarine, the Ground Based Strategic Deterrent, the Long Range Standoff Missile, and associated command and control upgrades began several years ago. The question was how to afford each of these programs as the ramp up in roughly the early 2020s or so. Each of those programs – with maybe a asterisk next to LRSO – were fully funded from 2013 to today. So saying that the funding for them just began with the budget deal is factually incorrect (but of course something that Donald Trump would like to claim).

But back to the OP’s question about “OMG we don’t know if our nuclear weapons work!!11!” fears. IMHO, it’s irrational. Every year since 1995, a group of senior government officials, backed up by the foremost nuclear labs, must certify that our nuclear weapons provide a credible deterrent without underground testing. It has been so certified each year since then.

OP, if your conservative friends/family assert that our nuclear weapons maybe don’t work, they are calling all the various Secretaries of Defense, Secretaries of Energy, Commanders of Strategic Command, Los Alamos Lab, Sandia Lab, Lawrence Livermore Lab, and various others involved in advisory capacitities (such as the Chief of Staff of the U.S. Air Force and the Chief of Naval Operations of the U.S. Navy) for the past two decades a bunch of liars.

Now, you should ask your interlocutors what’s more likely: that all of those officials and scientists have kept up a lie, through multiple Republican and Democratic Administrations; or that they don’t know what they are talking about?

I work at OSD and I frequently travel with my boss, a fairly senior guy with a pretty diverse portfolio. He talks when he has just about any size group around, when he’s a lunch, dinner, getting a brief, or taking a tour. We get questions about the Services, pay and compensation, end strength levels, personnel reductions (military and civilian), health care, BRAC, where the next war will be - pretty diverse questions. I can’t think of one question we have ever gotten, from a military or civilian group, on our nuclear weapons or deliver systems. From my seat, it’s anything but a common concern, left or right.

The nuclear enterprise is important within DoD, and Navy and Air Force brief it in conjunction with their other weapons systems when required, but it’s not getting more funding or attention than is usual. It’s safe, effective and functions as designed.

I don’t see any obsession about it anywhere.