I’m still not getting why you think this incident had anything to do with race. I really think you have to bend over backwards to get some sort of racial overtone to this, but I obviously wasn’t there. Nevertheless, I certainly don’t see why you would be “embarrassed for your race” because of this relatively minor incident.
It doesn’t even seem to me that what RAWMP did was so outrageous. He asked for the guy’s badge number so he could make a complaint. He didn’t call him names, he didn’t assault him, he didn’t threaten him. Just because he didn’t share his grievance with the rest of the train car doesn’t mean he didn’t have one. Maybe the reason the “other white people” in the car didn’t take sides was because they didn’t know what had happened. Maybe the reason the black people did take sides was out of racial solidarity. There are a number of explanations for what happened which are completely inconsistent with the spin you’re putting on it.
But maybe when you have a hammer, all you see is nails.
Ok, you don’t see it. I’m fine with you not seeing it. You weren’t there. I don’t bend over backwards to see any kind of overtones in social situations. That is such an odd remark. I suppose there are people who go looking for opportunities to become upset, but I am not one of them. I related a disturbing incident that I witnessed and my feelings about it. I don’t understand where the difficulty lies in understanding this.
There was nothing to “grieve”, a fact that seems to elude you. MCM did nothing but click tickets. I heard from another passenger that RAWMP claims MCM hit him. This is blatantly false. RAWMP is lying. And he did create a disturbance on the train. He was yelling at MCM, but none of his yelling had any substance, which added to the surreality of it all.
And the black people taking sides “out of racial solidarity” somehow bolsters your argument that none of this has to do with race? How does that one work? :dubious:
The white people near me certainly did know what happened, as did RAWMP’s wife. Again, why is it ok for the all black people in the car to take sides “out of racial solidarity” if this has nothing to do with race?
Surely if RAWMP had a legitimate complaint, the other passengers–regardless of race-- would show support for him and not MCM? So why wouldn’t it work the other way, that the passengers would show support for MCM when he was faced with an obnoxious, angry person? And yet that did not occur. I was the only white person to show support.
You forgot a possible scenario: that people of other races in the car did support MCM, but were afraid or reluctant to speak up. IMO, that’s wrong (but understandable) as well, so much so that I included it in my previous posts. Everyone has to choose their battles.
Yes, because I make a habit of looking for racially charged events and relating them here. In fact, here at the Dope, I’ve made a name for myself doing just that. :dubious:
I didn’t say it was okay, or that it had nothing to do with race. What I’m saying is your story is as consistent with blacks behaving badly as it is with whites behaving badly. It wouldn’t really make sense for you to be so embarrassed about white racists if you were in the presence of black racists. And you must be pretty powerful to be able to discern what everyone in the train did or didn’t know. I know I’m not paying particular attention to all of the interactions around me when I’m on public transit.
I have no idea what “name you’ve made for yourself” here. I didn’t feel the need to review your posting history to comment on what you’ve said in this thread. It just seems you’re intent on seeing racism in this situation where there may not be any.
It isn’t always about race. But sometimes it is about race.
If you have a crowd of people that have a choice of doing two things and you see that all the black people in the crowd do one thing and all the white people in the crowd do the other thing, that it is a reasonable surmise that the crowd divided itslef by race. Sure it’s possible that it was just a pure coincidence that all the black people happened to make one choice and all the white people made the other. But at that point, race can reasonably be assumed to be the most likely explanation and anyone saying it isn’t the explanation assumes the burden of proof.
So those who are saying the OP needs to prove that race was the issue here should at the very least assume the same burden of proof they’re asking for - let them prove that race wasn’t the issue and that nobody on that train made their decision based on race.
I don’t think anyone’s saying she needs to prove that race was the issue. What I’m saying is it’s a bit precious to say she’s embarrassed of her race because of this relatively minor incident, which may not have even been racially motivated. Of course, I also think it’s dumb to profess that you’re embarrassed to be of your race because of the actions of other members of your race. If you’ve done nothing wrong, you have nothing to be embarrassed about.
Precious? You’re kidding, right? First I’m paranoid and finding excuses to find prejudice and now I seem to be some kind of attention whore whose innocent eyes have been opened wide by the meanies around her. It’s hard to be Sarah Palin and Lindsay Lohan at the same time.
You are welcome to your opinion. Thank you for sharing it. I’m not going to immolate myself or turn in my WASP card because of this. Feelings don’t have to make sense. As has been stated, my embarrassment was momentary. Maybe I felt that way because I feel connected to fellow human beings in general. I would have been embarrassed for this guy no matter his race–people acting belligerently and rudely in public embarrass me. People who don’t respond civilly to incivility along racial lines embarrass me, but perhaps you are not bothered by injustice. And that’s enough explaining; I owe you nothing.
**Dangerosa **: Me and Al, we go waaaaaay back. Don’t tell anyone, but I’m his speechwriter.
A) If you would have been [vicariously] embarrassed regardless of his race then there would have been no reason to bring it up, unless the guy did. And…apparently he did not. You did.
B) You gave us no reason to believe anyone acted “along racial lines” other than your observations of their color. Perhaps you were the only one seeing things racially.
I didn’t see any reason for the OP being embarrassed for her race, and I feel more is being made of something than need be, but I disagree with your point B. She DID give a reason for suspecting there was a racial divide – the fact that only black passengers made remarks defending the conductor.
This makes no sense. My being embarrassed (being made uncomfortable is probably a better phrase) regardless of race does not negate my being embarrassed (with no such substitution) when there is a racial divide. Why would one negate the other?
But I did give reason–repeatedly and I’m not about to do so again. No, I wasn’t the only one–I may have been the only white person seeing this as a racial thing, but I can’t be sure of that.
Remind me to not post about events in my life I find disturbing and would like to talk about. You all are an argumentative bunch. None of this changes my feelings about the incident, but it does change my feelings about sharing information here.
Boy that shit is truly annoying. Knock down an argument if you please… but to step to the side and say…“look at this” is juvenile and condescending.
TO the OP … I understand your sentiment. Black people have a long history of hearing some report and then holding your breath hoping it wasn’t a member of your tribe. I told my mother about ten years ago I was giving this up for Kwanzaa… or was it Lent?..
As for the reaction… As a former Chicago cop NOTHING beats being in downtown Chicago when the OJ verdict was read.
To the OP: Honestly, I see nothing in any of your posts describing the incident that would indicate that anyone’s actions or reactions were racially-based; indeed, all you’ve described along those lines was the ethnicity of each of the participants.
And, of course, your own reaction, which was most definitely racially charged.
I may be wrong, but I don’t think I am. If so, please direct me to where you described one of the participants’ behaving in a racist/racial manner.
From everything you’ve presented - and that’s all we have to go on here - it seems you are making some colossal assumptions about folks’ motivations and actions. And that is hardly a positive outlook.
Unless you are leaving out some key details, I’d say you damn well should be embarrassed. But not for the reasons you think.
I hear ya , Eleanor, and, well see the racist element in what happened. Please don’t let this thread dissuade you from speaking up. Remember, people who spoke up about injustice 30 years ago could be ruined, 50 years ago hanged… speaking up takes huevos. Think about those brave folks. Deep good Breathe and go on ahead on. Li’l ass bit of grief on a message board is but a wee sigh in history.
Yep. You caught me. Busted, flat out. It’s a fair cop. I started a thread about an incident that appears to me to be racially charged for the sole purpose of outing myself as a racist. Nope–the RAWMP accused MCM of hitting him when nothing at all happened, slowed the commute down and had the train cops called in and no white person except me protested his actions, but the black people in the car did protest, and it’s all about my latent racism. Thank you for clarifying that for me.
What would it take for you all to see a situation as racist–RAWMP holding a noose? RAWMP calling him a nigger? Does it really have to be that obvious for actions to labeled racist? This is becoming surreal: I am now racist for pointing out racist behavior on the part of others.
I see nothing in your OP which indicates the “RAWMP” had any issue with the MCM due to anything having to do with race. I am with kathmandu, it seems like the only racial issue here is the fact that the asshole just happened to be white. So? Like 70% of dudes in America are white, thus 70% of assholes are white. Assholeishness is a condition that passes all racial and ethnic boundaries.
Give me a break - do you always blow things this much out of proportion? Of course I’m bothered by injustice. What you’re describing isn’t injustice. You’re not Rosa Parks, and this wasn’t some great evil perpetrated on the downtrodden masses. Frankly, your OP boiled down to “I saw some guy being rude and offensive, I’m now recreationally outraged because I think it might involve racism, now everybody congratulate me on how caring and sensitive I am.” Just my impression.
I am not trying to pick on you, nor am I trying to argue.
I feel as strongly about racism as you do. I abhor it.
But I think there is a paradoxical aftereffect of our long experience with racism.
IME it has become so embedded in our collective conscience and consciousness that we often overlook the fact that there are [now] other more compelling reasons for garden variety stupidity.
If that’s true---------the gist of which is that while racism isn’t dead, and will likely never be gone, the amount of poor behavior between people of different races is much less likely to be due to racism, in whole or in part, vis a vis the past------------------- then we have to let that guy simply to be a jerk, without assuming he’s a racist jerk.
Even more importantly, we have to let that conductor be the victim (a liberal use of the word ‘victim’) of a jerk, rather than a racist [jerk], unless there is compelling evidence to ascribe racism to that situation.
My fear is that these mindsets may have the unintended effect of being racist themselves and to perpetuate the notion that racism is as pervasive as it was 40 years ago.
By way of example, an inner city kid will learn naturally that life has it’s share of jerks. Overcoming-----or at least recognizing jerkish behavior and dealing with it-----is infinitely easier to learn than he/she will never overcome their skin color; that racism in the form of jerkish behavior is a lot harder to live with.
And so I find that any context that makes an African American a victim of racism in the absence of clear evidence, and inspires a rush to their defense is condescending and paternalistic-----for it reminds them that not only has the “white man” not grown, but when they are in a ‘jerkish’ transaction we will-----albeit well intentioned------identify them first and foremost by their color.
Where you sitting in the RAWMP’s lap? No, you were ten feet away and I doubt if you were watching him like a hawk (why would you?). So, just why would the RAWMP make a bogus incident if NOTHING happened? Even if he was a Grand Imperial Wizard, he’d wait until there was something, and then blow it out of proportion. Even the most racist bastard in the world just doesn’t start making totally false accusations out of nowhere without some cause or reason.
Even assuming the white dude is a racist, your story is just impossible on the face of it.
