How many times in the movies did we see Jedi deflecting blaster bolts back at the shooter? Yet people and droids keep on trying.
I know. I wasn’t going to pick that particular nit, as it’s a distraction, and for all practical purposes in this discussion, a distinction without a difference.
The second flows from the first. My suspension of disbelief fails whenever I see overwrought explanations for the simplest things.
That’s all fine-and-dandy, and very reasonably reasoned. But…
It opens the door to a frightening level of Jedi ability that we simply never, ever see on-screen.
And we also rarely see police forces figting crime, or the U.S. Military fighting. We see and hear about it on the news, but rarely witness it ourselves. Doesn’t mean they aren’t on the job. Kenobi’s line that the Jedi were the guardians of peace and justice for 1,000 generations seriously implies that there are other threats (perhaps rogue states, pirate groups, other forms of organized crime, etc.), and we do see the Jedi deal with one of them (potential war with the Trade Fed.).
I never said the Jedi were just sitting around doing nothing until the Sith threat re-emerged and they then “got off of their asses;” I said it was the only on-screen, in-Universe threat that made them “collectively shit themselves,” as it was only the Sith that posed a strategic, institutional threat to the Jedi.
How much kinetic energy can a Jedi TK? And how far? Again, no on-screen (thus in-universe) evidence of any Jedi’s or Sith’s ability to TK battlefield ordnance hundreds, perhaps (literally!) thousands of meters away.
A Mk 19 has a muzzle velocity of 240 m/s. That’s 864 km/h, or about 535 mi/h. That’s relatively slow compared to say a 9mm or .40&W bullet. It’s a large, heavy projectile (~ 0.5 kilo, or 1 pound) that does follow a reltively high-arc trajectory (not mortar levels of arc, but higher than a regular bullet), and terminal ballistics, while not necessary to compute for the effect of the round (it’s a flying bomb), are a factor in determining if a Force-user can TK “catch” or “deflect” them.
Let’s say it’s only going about 150 m/s at 1,500m. That still a half-kilo object travelling at 540 km/h, or about 335 mi/h. But you keep saying “Stop it in the barrel.” It has the greatest “impulse” behind it at that point, and thus, I would think it would be even harder to stop it there that in flight.
But can they TK that much kinetic energy? If so, how far away can they engage an incoming projectile? Can they stop a battery fire 155mm artillery barrage? Can they stop a 120mm tank round in flight? Stop it in the barrel when it has the greatest specific impule behind it?
We do see the Jedi do some pretty impressive stuff with TK abilities. Yoda lifts an X-Wing out of a muddy bog, flys it a few dozen meters to dry land, and gently sets it down. But he had to concentrate to do it, and it took him ~30 seconds to do it start-to-finish.
Vader ripped stuff off of a wall, and picked up multiple objects, and flew them (slowly) at Luke on Bespin. Again, short range, and relatively low KE values, comparatively speaking.
Nothing we see suggests that they routinely have the power levels necessary to stop battlefield ordnance in flight, or are even aware of it.
Were you watching the same movies? “Lord Sidious” was directing the Separitists! He told them when and where to attack on several occasions.
And Vader had every advantage going into that confrontation. I’m sure he knew everything Imperial Intelligence could dig up on Han, as well as whatever Boba Fett could tell him. He knew exactly when and where Han was going to appear, what he was armed with, and had a pretty good idea how he would react. Vader stacked the deck in his favor as much as possible without tipping his hand. Can’t say as I blame him.
Now put Vader on a Clone War battlefield, with thousands of Clone Troopers battling thousands of battle droids. There’s artillery pieces blasting Separatist ships out of the sky. There’s AAT’s and Assault Ship’s and Gunships, with all of that going on, with all that stuff flying around, do you really think he’s going to have the awareness to ID a threat a mile away before it even fires?
I put that down to very bad writing. If the Clone Troopers were in on Order 66 from the very beginning, there’s no way, in-universe, that the Jedi would have been caught unawares. It had to be a “buried command” instilled into them at the cloning facility, one that they are never consciously aware of until it is activated. A mental flipping of the “Identify Friend/Foe” switch that moves Jedi from the friend to foe category with a speed and completeness nearing instantaneity, allowing them to gun down the Jedi with extremely little warning.
Not going to quote the whole thing, as I do agree that this is the closest we see a Force-user to having the abilities you ascribe (stopping a grenade in the barrel of a grenade launcher). I agree that a grenade at rest and a lightsaber at rest have similar energy values. But we’re not talking really about grenades at rest. We’re talking about multiple grenades, dozens really, flying hundreds of miles and hour, launched from up to a mile-and-change away.
You say the Jedi can sense the threat. We know they can sense threats, and if it was the only threat, I might agree. But we’re talking battlefield, Clone War conditions. There’s a lot going on. Is a Jedi going to pick out that specific threat?
You say they can TK the round in the barrel. The Mk. 19 has a recoil force of 500 pounds. Considering how fast it fires, that is one hell of an impulse. We only ever see one Jedi with that kind of power, and that’s Yoda catching one Senate Saucer when Palpatine threw a half-dozen of the things at him.
We do see Force-users manipulate multiple objects in combat conditions, and that’s Vader, and Palpatine. They’re manipulating objects within close visual range, and moving them (with some power, I’ll admit) also within close visual range.
I submit that a barrage of dozens of grenades flying hundreds of miles and hour flying directly at a Jedi would overwhelm their capabilities. While we do see rare instances of several of the abilities necessary to protect themselves (or even turn the tables on the grenadier), we never see the combination of abilities, of reaction time, Force ability, and power level, necessary to stop that kind of firepower.
I will allow this: if John Wayne ever John Wayned a grenade at a Jedi, he’d be in for one rude, incredibly brief, and ultimately terminal surprise.
Oakminster may be along to castigate me as a pinko commie for saying such a thing, but I’m not so sure his geekitude rises to “grenades vs. Jedi” as to bring him into this thread.
You guys are what makes this board so much fun. Thanks.
And grenades would totally smash the Jedi. Even Yoda. It’s not so much the power of the weapon as it is the sheer number of projectiles. Overwhelm the Jedi, it will. Yes. Go boom he will.
I’ve seen plenty of Trek vs. Wars battles, but this is the first Star Wars vs. Real Live discussion I’ve seen. Good times.
I like the green ones. They’re sweet. 
I see what you’re saying, but honestly, I don’t think my explanation is particularly overwrought. It’s a natural extrapolation of things we see Jedi do routinely.
How much pressure does it take to trigger the fuse? The Jedi doesn’t need to stop or guide the projectile, he just needs to put enough braking force on it for it to think it’s hit something.
Yes, but he’s not President of the Federation, or anything. They aren’t part of a unified command structure. He has no official leadership position over them, and they feel no sense of loyalty towards him. They only do what he says because he’s convinced them that they’ll profit from it. They aren’t going to follow clearly suicidal orders, like “Don’t use any effective weapons against the Jedi.”
Sure, in a pitched battle, it’s going to be very difficult for a Jedi to pick up on an individual threat at that range. Of course, Jedi fight with swords. So if you plan to use the cover of battle to distract the Jedi from your grenade launcher, you have to be prepared to take some significant friendly fire casualties. (Admittedly, not much of a concern if your army is composed entirely of droids.) You can try to hit them before they engage, but then they’ve got that Jedi superspeed thing going for them - that plus enough precognition to know where a grenade is about to land would make them a very difficult target. This also assumes that you get free pick of what terrain you engage the Jedi on. If you can catch an army of Jedi totally unaware on open ground at long range, you probably will tear 'em up pretty good. The trick is getting them into that open ground: they are, after all, an army of precognitive mind readers. All it takes is one of them to suddenly get a bad feeling about where they’re headed, and there goes your element of surprise.
So, I think a grenade launcher could be a useful weapon, in the right conditions. One Jedi versus one grenadier, the grenadier’s fucked. One Jedi versus many grenadiers, and no more Jedi. Scale it up to armies, and it depends on the terrain, and who has the element of surprise. If the Separtists get to pick, they choose the Bonneville Salt Flats and rain grenades on the Jedi from over a mile a way. If the Jedi get to pick, they choose the Parisian catacombs, and hunt the Separatist army down like rats.
What was that you said earlier about overwrought explanations? 
I can’t believe no one else has done this, but…
golf clap
They aren’t armed at firing. IIRC, they “spin arm” during flight, and are considered armed after about 14m.
And Palpatine is too smart to give clearly suicidal orders. But he’s in a good position to play both ends against the middle. And thus perpetuate a war in which he’s accumulating the necessary executive power to declare himself Emperor.
I’m actually kind of curious about what kind of Empire he would have had if the Jedi had 28.3g of subtlety, and didn’t rush in to arrest the legally elected Chancellor. Would Palpatine have triggered Order 66 anyway? Could the Jedi have quietly lobbied loyal Senators to put electoral pressure on Palpatine to relinquish the near-absolute power he had accumulated?
It looked to me as if individual Jedi were leading Task Groups; outside of the Arena Battle on Geonosis, we don’t really see any Jedi Armies, per se. Were the Jedi out-and-about with the Clone Armies in order to try to locate Darth Sideous or Count Dooku (they were cuckoo for Dooku puffs!)? Or were they actually commanding Clone Armies? I kind of got the impression that they were as much “Commissars” for the Senate, overseeing the Clone War and lending Jedi assistance where needed.
Choosing favorable terrain is an art. “On dangerous ground, maneuver; on deadly ground, fight.” And The Enemy, that dastardy fiend, rarely cooperates. Would Jedi insight cover military stratagems and battlefield tactics? Would it substitute for military academy-level training and battlefield experience? Would they get that “I got a bad feeling about this” Force-assisted Spidey-sense tingling up the back if a very clever enemy commander lures them and the military forces they command onto deadly gound with superlative tactics and cunning?
As always, the right weapon for the right place/time. Taking a grenade launcher into tunnels/catacombs is silly. Never play to your enemy’s strengths. If the Jedi retreat to catacombs and dare us to follow, seal the entrances with flamethrower units, maybe have Engineers actually seal known exits with a few kilos of carefully emplaced demo, and then pump in simple heavier-than-air gases (CO2 comes to mind) and see how long they can breathe that.
‘…Rainbow!..’
Seriously, though, green. When Luke showed up at Jaba’s with the green saber, you could tell he was serious.
I’d take both crystals, and make an aqua one. BEAT THAT, BITCHES!!!
And FTR, it’s blue IFTBW.
Blue, definitely blue. Over green anyway.
I’d probably go with red if it was an option. But since it’s not, I’ll go with the only other color seen in Star Wars and Empire, and that is blue.
What was the deal with Kenner, anyway? Why’d they keep sticking my Luke action figures with lousy yellow sabers? At least until the Jedi figure, then for some reason they finally gave him blue… even though he actually had green then.
Yeah, I know it was original still blue in Jedi but the sky yadda yadda, running change on the figure, blah blah, but it still don’t explain the yellow sabers.
Teal would be nice.