Well, it actually literally is true. There’s more water in Warsteiner, and Guinness, than in Budwesier. But that’s not really the point. The point is that the “watered down” criticism is one that really needs to be put to rest. It actually doesn’t carry any meaning and it’s got a derogatory tone that turns these discussions into pissing contests. “Watered down” isn’t any qualitative measure of flavor that I know of and I’d yank the sash off any beer judge who used it regularly. Talk about some actual taste characteristics please.
Yes. that was exactly my point. I know it’s literally true.
I can see your point here. “Watered down” can be expressed in much more precise terms, yes. I would not want judges using these terms. But I have an inkling of what the average person means when they say “watered down,” and I suspect you do, too. They mean lacking, or if you prefer, subtle in flavor.
Labatt’s and Molson are the equivalent of Coors Lite or any other swill made by macros in the US. In fact, I’d say that Blue ranks down there among the worst beers I’ve ever had.
The macros are “watered down” in the figurative sense that they are simplified for American palates, especially in terms of hops or any complex notes. They are bland, inoffensive, not challenging. I don’t think Budweiser and Miller taste terrible, I just think they’re boring. Too simple. No subtlety of fore taste and after taste. No aroma or mouth feel to enjoy. Just an inoffensive conveyance for alcohol.
Well, since there have been complaints that good microbrewed lagers are few and far between, I’d start with Hopworks Urban Brewery’s HUB Lager-I think it compares favorable with anything Germany has to offer.
My Favorite IPA is Lagunitas Hop Stupid, and for a stout I’ll grab a Black Bear XX Stout by Alameda Brewpubs. My favorite though is a weird brew by Widmer Brothers-W’10 Pitch Black IPA. It looks like a stout but tastes like a damnfine IPA.
I usually likes me some Sam Adams Boston Lager.
I know what they mean, but often what they are implying is equally as important. People that resort to that lazy description are a couple breaths away from a tired sex in a canoe joke. Needless to say they aren’t really interested in a discussion about the merits of beer and are merely parroting the same ignorant beer snobbery they read on rateabeer or in their local hophead pub.
We’re going to sort of agree, sort of disagree on this point. Like I said upthread, there is an American bias towards “bigger is better” – I’ve been ecstatic to see more session beers at the local breweries like Goose Island, and not just all hop or malt bombs. It irritates me that the “best of” lists of beer enthusiasts is filled with imperial stouts, imperial IPAs, and your heavier Belgian styles. But I think plenty of the ratebeer or “snob” crowd or whatever perception you have of beer enthusiasts is happy to engage on the merits of beers respective to their own style. I mean, I think most of the people in this thread have been an example of this. I just feel that there’s this weird sort of reverse snobbery going on in your posts. I’m not seeing what you’re seeing in this thread–sure, there’s been one or two snarky comments on American pale lagers but, for the most part, everybody has been answering the question as stated and unironically.
It’s just that I’m reading some weird reverse snobbery in your posts. I’m not seeing what you appear to see in this thread. With the exception of a couple snarky posts, everyone has been answering this on the level and unironically.
No kidding. I never thought I’d see a macrobeer snob.
No, we agree I think. I think most real beer fans are measured and practical in their critique. Most authentic hopheads and recreational beer loggers appreciate what American Pale Lagers are and where they fit in the library of beers. They generally understand the difficulty in what the big boys do and look past the label to appreciate what’s in the bottle. They’ll give a Michelob or Leinenkugel a fair shake.
However, the prevalence of brew pubs and the open nature of these beer communities open the door to a lot of posers and wannabes. Amateurs will hear a brewmaster talking about IBUs and bourbon cask aging and automatically start parroting these terms and concepts without any nuance. Those best of lists tend to poison the debate because so many lazy beer people will take them as gospel and start developing their own biases based on ignorance.
When I criticize the hopheads and brew pub fans I’m actually mocking the people that stop in once every 2 months and then brag to their friends about this obscure Dubbel they tried that was so much more awesome than their Red Stripe. The accessibility of craft beers has birthed a breed of loudmouths that need to be shouted down. Sadly those folks tend to far outnumber the reasoned and pragmatic folks on rateabeer leading to silly lemming-like activity that gets Budweiser a 4% rating compared to Schlitz’s 94%. I mean really, that’s absurd.
Incidentally I’d like to point out that I have a 2007 Goose Island Bourbon County Stout setting up nicely in my closet as we speak.
I opened one of those just a few days ago. Knocked me on my ass. It goes down pretty smooth for a 13% ABV.
Hey, wait! That’s me. 
But, seriously, I actually do find the ratebeer ratings fairly reasonable, when you examine them in the context of their styles, and not overall beer ratings (where the best beers are almost always, like I said, IIPA, imperial stouts, or Belgians). Like I said above, I’m an Old Style guy when it comes to American pale lagers. It was the first beer I ever tasted (at 3 or 4 years old) and will forever be a part of me. That said, a few weeks ago, I was getting burnt out on the Old Style, and ordered a bottle of Schlitz. I honestly could not believe what a difference in depth of flavor it was. It was more comparable to a premium American lager like Samuel Adams than the usual BudMillCoor-type beers, which my macro favorite Old Style is an extension of. I don’t think it has anything to do with “lemming-like activity”–it’s a lot more flavorful (in a good way) than any of these beers. On the other hand, the Blatz or Old Milwaukee I got at a pub a few days later did not leave as favorable an impression on me…
That may be be my favorite imperial stout. I have a whole collection of Dark Lords (1 x 2005, 2 x 2006, 3 x 2007, 3 x 2008) but I prefer the Goose Island by a good bit. It’s still heavy and rich, but far more drinkable and balanced (in my opinion.) I can’t remember which Bourbon County Stout year was the real special one for me, but it was either the '06 or the '07.
Am I the only one not buying all the propaganda about hops=theawesome, and the false dichotomy between bitter beer and flavorless piss swill?
Bitter doesn’t make a beer taste good. It makes it taste bitter. What else is bitter? Ear wax. Bitter is not a good flavor.
You can have a delicious, flavor filled beer, without overwhelming it with a bitter overload of hops.
No, I think there are plenty of anti-hop people out there, but a lot of your microbrew enthusiasts do tend towards the hops. To be honest, that is what got me into exploring the microwbrews. I’ve always been a fan of your more middle-of-the-road craft brews like Samuel Adams Boston Lager or Cream Stout or Honey Porter or whatnot. One day, my cousin ordered the most expensive bottle of beer at this local pub. It was $20 for a bomber, so not too crazy, but still a lot more that I’ve ever thought of spending on a beer at that time. The beer was Dreadnaught, an imperial IPA produced by Three Floyd’s–a great brewery, but an examplar of the “bigger is better” style of brewing.
The first whiff of that beer–I was in heaven. I had never smelled anything like that before. It was beautiful. Orange and citrus and spice and general “greenness.” It was so intense and amazing. I had no idea that’s what hops could be like. I had no idea that’s what beer could be like. And then the brew itself–heavy, alcohol-y, with almost a syrupy maltiness to it, balanced by the most intense concentration of hops flavors I’ve ever experienced. That beer completely turned my drinking world upside down and I don’t think I drank anything but IPAs for the next twelve months. Bitter can be good when it’s balanced with a solid malt backbone. Very, very good.
These days, I cycle. IPAs in the summer, malty beers in the fall/winter. And I’m more on a 3-5% ABV beer hunt than the 7%+ABV monsters. After awhile, you do just get burnt out on the heavy brews.
I do think the new Schlitz is excellent stuff, though well short of Yeungling still, but the point wasn’t so much that Schlitz isn’t good but Bud isn’t that bad. The divergence is unreasonable. The lemming activity is the mob mentality that makes it so fashionable to down rank Bud beyond all reason.
I dunno. To me, Bud really is that unappealing and really is an order of magnitude away from Schlitz or (even moreso) Yuengling. I don’t know why, but I do have difficulty drinking more than a bottle of that stuff (which is better than I can do with Busch–in college, I thought I just hated beer because all the frat parties would serve Busch Light. I would get a plastic cup of Busch, drink half of it, and then dump it. I literally could not finish a cup of Busch unless I forced myself to. I just stuck with hard alcohol for my freshman and sophomore years for this reason. Then I discovered Sam Adams, and realized beer can actually taste good. Given my definition of “good,” of course. Your value of “good” may vary.)
Put it this way.
I drink a good amount of beer, comparatively. At least two a day, on average. It is in my economic interest to find the cheapest beer that I actually enjoy. Trust me, I really wish I could truly enjoy a Bud or Miller. Unfortunately, Sam Adams or Goose Island beers (which are about a buck and a quarter a bottle) is the cheapest I could find for what I actively enjoy. Though I say I like Old Style, it’s more of a beer that doesn’t actively offend me, rather than one I get a craving for (except maybe on a hot summer day.) If Schlitz occupied more of a middle ground between Bud and Sam Adams, it’d be a no brainer. But it’s priced at about the same as Sam’s. So I opt for Sams. If it were priced at the Bud or Old Style point, I’d never get anything but Schlitz–it’s so clearly superior (once again, to my tastes.)
Unfortunately, I’m stuck with not having an under $1 a bottle/can beer that I can really look forward to drinking. Old Style is as close as I can get, and that’s still a ways off. It’s a “utility beer,” as I’d call it.
Have you tried Sierra Nevada? It’s a really good IPA for a good price.
The last premium beer I drunk was a 12 pack of newly produced, excellent Lager, krauesend, Buckeye Beer.
Otherwise, I drink Bud Light (usually draft), Busch or Busch Light (canned and draft), Natural Light, Miller High Life, Milwaukee’s BestLlight, throw in a Four Loko, occassionally.