I would say through the bulk of Tiki’s time with the Giants that they have never had a good O-line and usually a below average O-line. Luke Petitgout alone has cost the Giants for years.
Jim
When 2006 starts, they will have been playing together as a unit for years; moreso if you consider that Kareem McKenzie was added last year, but the other four had been playing together for a couple years already. But consider the history. Look at the (lack of) experience and low expectations regarding the OL going into 2004…
Left Tackle
02-06: Luke Petitgout. Stable consistency, but overpriced injury-prone penalty hound.
Left Guard
2002: Rich Seubert. Considered best player on OL during 2002, but injured early in 2003 for two years. (N.D. Kalu is a piece of shit; fucking Eagles suck cock.)
03-04: Wayne Lucier. Wasn’t the starter going into either season, but due to injuries this career backup was pressed into starting role for the majority of both seasons, starting 20 games in total.
05-06: David Diehl. 3rd position in 3 years, the 5th round pick has started every game of his career. (Wow!)
Center
02-03: Chris Bober. Damn fine player.
04-06: Shaun O’Hara. Came over from Cleveland, whose OL sucked ass the previous season. Was viewed as a downgrade from Bober.
Right Guard
2002: Jason Whittle. Member of 2000 Superbowl squad.
2003: David Diehl. Rookie 5th round draft pick, wasn’t expected to do much. Largely due to injuries on OL, he became fiirst Giant to start all 16 games his rookie year since Mark Bavaro.
04-06: Chris Snee. 2nd round pick in 2004, he was viewed as a major reach by Tom Coughlin, notoriously enamored with Boston College guys. Snee is also Coughlin’s daughter’s baby daddy, so he was viewed as a double-plus homer pick. Turns out he’s pretty damn good, but wasn’t highly touted at first.
Right Tackle
2002: Mike Rosenthal. Quality member of 2000 Superbowl roster, wanted out after 49ers Wildcard debacle.
2003: Ian Allen. Sucked beyond belief.
2004: David Diehl. Moved from RG to RT in second year as stopgap for injuries.
05-06: Kareem McKenzie. Solid player, brought over from Jets.
So consider the situation going into 2004:
LT: Overpaid veteran with lingering back problems.
LG: Scrub backup starts because Seuberts leg is still destroyed.
C: Downgrade from quality veteran to starter from shitty Cleveland team.
RG: Homer pick by Tom Coughlin who wants his grandbaby daddy to have a paycheck.
RT: Second year over-achiever now learning a new position.
That may be an overstatement of how dire the OL situation was going into 2004, but not by much:
Note that Stokes also got injured, forcing Lucier to start most of the season.
By any measure, that was a crappy line, and yet Tiki set the franchise single-season rushing record on the last play of the season. (The fact that it was a game-winning TD over Dallas to give Eli his first win is just too good not to mention.) No way would Alexander have been able to manage that.
I think they’ve now become quite the good line, but for a while there is was looking pretty bleak. And yet Tiki posted monster numbers behind them. Since really you were taking to task my downplaying their ability in 2005, I’d say you’ve got a bit of a point, but cohesion was far from a given. Petitgout has been there for years, but nobody else on the line had more than a single year of experience with the Giants at his starting position. (McKenzie was a new signing, Diehl was playing a new position, O’Hara had 1 year with the Giants, and Snee had only 1 year in the league.)
Coming into this season, with all starters on the OL returning with another year of experience, plus Seubert back from injury to provide depth? Well, even Alexander would be able to run well for the Giants in '06. Hell, Ron Dayne could probably run well behind this line. (Just not on 3rd & short.)
Hey Ellis, you are a lot more knowledgeable on football than I am. I tend to rip Petitgout every chance I get. Do you think I might be overreacting to his constantly being called for penalties or were you being nice to him in his evaluating? I think he is the worse starting Giant’s Left Tackle that has started for more than 1 season since at least '82. I am hoping he loses the starting job.
Jim
I think you are overreacting, though I can’t really blame you for it. I noticed this thread on Giants.com that you might find interesting:
Luke seems to be a high quality run blocker. As for his pass blocking, well, I’ll appeal to anecdotal info.
Remember the Seattle game when Luke false started 17 gazillion times? Of course you do. But you probably also remember how badly Osi owned Walter Jones, right? How many games do you remember where Luke got owned by anybody?
Me, I can remember he struggled against Carolina in the playoffs last year, but then again everybody on the team (except Strahan) blew chunks in that game. I can’t remember any other game where Luke was soundly thrashed by a pass rusher. Can you?
I think I have to watch his game more carefully, I am stilling using the same logic I learned when I was 10. “If you keep hearing an O-line players name , he must be doing a bad job.” That thread you linked to gives me some food for thought.
While I remember Luke being called for penalties for years and not just the Seattle game, you are right, I cannot recall a game where he got burned, in fact he threw at least one great block in the Mara remembrance game last year where Tiki ran crazy over the Skins.
Thank you,
Jim
As good a place as any for this hijack:
I got a call from my SIL this evening…she’s a cop down in May’s Landing. She wanted to let me know that they just brought in “a tight end for the Eagles” for auto theft and DWI. She wasn’t sure of the name, but said “he’s not their first-stringer, but everyone at the station knew his name”. So it looks like either Chad Lewis, Mike Bartrum or Matt Schobel may not be seeing much training camp time.
I knew Pettigout was a penalty magnet. I figured the Giants’ O line was underrated as well. I have no qualms about them at all, and Mr. Joyner agrees (at least with Pettigout’s run blocking).
Can’t I…you know…steal the Broncos O line or the Chiefs O line…and replace it with the Lions’?
I have no namby-pamby qualms about wishing injury on players. I’ve got a long list.
Terrell Owens, though it’s almost a forgone conclusion that everyone agrees here so perhaps it’s not worth discussing. It’d be like writing a paragraph trying to convince you folks that Hitler wasn’t a misunderstood, kindly chap.
Joey Porter, loud mouthed cheap-shot artist. Steeler and all around malcontent. We’ll be better off without him.
Ray Lewis, come on, the guy talks trash to his alarm clock in the morning. And there’s that whole murder thing. Not to mention throwing his D-line and coaching staff under the bus.
Steve Smith, he probably doesn’t deserve it but I’m still bitter about that whole playoff game.
Keyshawn Johnson, just because. He’s barely even a passable player anymore so he probably does more harm to his team by being healthy than hurt, but I suppose this is just ill-natured malice on my part.
Ricky Williams, just because some people don’t deserve the privilege of being that talented.
Kimo Van Oelhoffen, just to appease the football gods.
One would think I’d list a series of Packers in this list, but no. As I see it, wishing injury on any of the current Packers does nothing but increase the odds that they’ll locate a player who’ll actually improve them. The longer Favre plays the longer their descent into mediocrity (and worse) will continue. As I see it, he can play and chuck INTs for 3 mores years, all the while making that 1st round QB pick wasted and retarding any possible growth from Rodgers. They have a defense chock full or douches but each one brings the kind of talent that warms the cockles of this Bears fan. Though Al Harris is gone so I can wish harm on him just cause he is annoying.
I’m sure there’s more, but that’s good for now.
I’m not a fan of football at all, but if we could infect the entire football league with the Zombie virus, and replace the football with a human brain, then i might watch, just out of morbid curiosity…
You, Sir, have taken the thoughts from my mind and written them down for all to read.
Call me sadistic, but I’ve found myself wishing I could be around, with a camera, if and when Ellis learns of Tiki’s career ending injury 
I am LOVING loving LOVING all the Brett love goin’ on in here - it does my heart good - because we are all forbidden from saying anything anti-Favre at home. Mr2U calls him “Daddy”. :rolleyes:
Hmmmm - buzzards, huh, Claricaun? 
That would be me 
The O-line is the desert is not going to be a problem this year.
last year injuries wiped out any chance of forming a reasonable unit. Hell we had three 1st string Centers before training camp ended due to injuries. Not one game did we have the same 5 players start on the o-line.
Arizona is going to come blazing out of the desert and rip thru the season and into the playoffs like an freight train only to crash and burn in the traditional Dennis Green playoff tradition.
I hate to see players get hurt, but I do so root for some to get a case of s F ups.
Osip