Who do you think killed JFK?

I’m in favor a conspiracy. In an alternate universe, Kennedy wasn’t assassinated and won a second term for President. Unfortunately, he buckled under to the USSR, and doomed the Untied States to 500 years of poverty, depression, and degradation under a world-wide communist rule. In 2476, a group of underground rebel scientists invented a mind control device capable of controling people back in time. The mind control device worked best on unstable minds and Oswald was the perfect pasty to kill the Evil Betrayer of American Liberty. They forced Oswald to act alone, and then went to work on Ruby as a cover up. Whenever someone gets to close to the truth, they use the mind control device to implant beliefs of silly conspiracy theories to throw off truthseekers….

…Hey, wait a moment, scratch that. Let’s go with Jackie O as the psycho first lady.

Do the conspiracy theorists understand the concept of eyewitnesses?

Picture this example: A man, who we’ll call Ozzie, walks into a houseful of people. He pulls out a gun and shoots the owner of the house, Jack, in front of sixteen witnesses. He then drops the gun and walks out of the house. The police arrive at the scene, recover the murder weapon, and arrest Ozzie a few blocks away. Ozzie gets knifed in the jail yard before standing trial.

The story makes the paper. Oliver, who lives hundreds of miles away and never met Ozzie or Jack, reads an article in the paper. He looks at a picture of the crime scene and notices that Jack’s feet were pointing up. Oliver, a man who knows very little science, believes that someone who is shot would instinctively grab their chest and fall face down. So obviously Jack couldn’t have been shot.

Oliver now makes some phone calls and finds Mildred, an elderly woman who lives down the street from Jack’s house. Mildred wasn’t in Jack’s house when the crime occurred but she remembers she saw a man walking around the neighborhood that afternoon carrying a cricket bat. There’s no explanation about who this man is or why he had a cricket bat, so he’s “mysterious”. And because Oliver’s proven that Jack wasn’t shot, he must have died by some other means such as being hit by a blunt object. Clearly this mystery man with a cricket bat is the real killer.

Oliver contronts the police with his new evidence and the detective assigned to the case tells him there were sixteen eyewitnesses who identified Ozzie so they arrested him. Having found Ozzie, the police saw no need to search for anyone else including the man with the cricket bat. Oliver realizes that at the very least, the police failed to investigate all possible theories because they were too focused on Ozzie. Or perhaps they’re protecting Cricket Bat Man, who may after all be a police officer himself.

Ozzie goes to the local paper and blows the lid off the story despite the danger he might be putting himself in. When an article appears in the paper, a man called Ken comes forward and says he was walking through the neighborhood that day with a cricket bat he was giving as a birthday gift to his nephew. At the time of the shooting, Ken was at the birthday party. Oliver quickly sees the holes in this story: How could Ken have been at a birthday party when he was committing a murder? Maybe he ducked out of the party, went to Jack’s house, beat Jack to death, and then snuck back in to the party. Maybe it was Ken’s nephew who was the real killer. Or maybe there was a second cricket bat man.

Meanwhile, Steve is working on the real story. Steve heard in a bar that Jack had been in a big fight with Max a week before he was killed. So Max is the obvious suspect in Jack’s murder. But Max has an alibi and says he never met Ozzie. This doesn’t stop Steve, who’s researching the secret connection between Max and Ozzie. Marty meanwhile knows that Oliver and Steve are following the wrong trail and may in fact be part of a conspiracy to divert attention from the Man With Red Hair, who Marty knows is the real killer based on a psychic revelation he had. And there’s Herman, who knows the Freemasons did it because they’re behind everything.

I’d just like to pull a variation on dotchan’s technique.

Scenario: LHO not invovled in any way in shooting of JFK. Not even used as a patsy.
Likelyhood: Extrememly Low.
Why?: Oswald’s gun definately traced to him, definately used in shooting, Oswalds pre-assasination antics, and there’s that little murder of Tippet on the way home.

Scenario: Oswald knows conspiracists, but was not triggerman.
Likelyhood: Very Low.
Why?: Oswald’s prints on the gun. Murdering Tippet on way home a bit extreme for a guy who has not killed anyone to date.

Scenario: Oswald one of several gunmen in mass conspiracy.
Likelyhood: Low
Why?:Only three shots heard by most, multiple gunmen would mean extreme discipline would be required for other shooters. Oswald is too unreliable to be trusted by others. Conspiracy involves too many people in on it to stay secret.

Scenario: Oswald and an unknown ‘pal’ shoot JFK.
Likelyhood: Almost Low.
Why?:Very unlikely Oswald knew anyone who would help in this matter that wasn’t position to shoot. No effective shooting scenario, weapon, bullets, or any other evidence pointing to another shooter.

Scenario: Oswald acted alone
Likelyhood: High
Why? Oswald’s gun at scene, Oswald’s prints on gun. Eyewitnesses saw him, earwitnesses heard him firing, rifle bullets perfectly capable of inflicting such wounds on Connally and JFK, Oswald shoots Tippet on way home, Oswald not a stable person by any means, Oswald already tried killing another politician, etc. etc.

Once upon a time,

Oswald killed JFK.
Jack Ruby killed Oswald.
Sirhan Sirhan killed RFK.
James Earl Ray killed MLK.
??? killed Jimmy Hoffa.

They all acted alone, there was no conspiracy.

And the people of the village lived happily ever after.

Was the man who ordered the Kennedy assasination. Why? Both Jack and Bobby Kennedy HATED JEH…Bobby was constantly trying to remove Hoover as head of the FBI…yet, both men were scared to death that Hoover would unveil the FBI files on the Knnedy family, revealing (among other things):
-Joseph Kennedy (the dad) was a Nazi sympathizer in WWII, and paid Sam Giancana (of the Chicago Mob) to fix the Chicago vote in the 1960 election.
-Both men (Jack and Booby) were under mob scrutiny…Giancana wanted to kill Bobby because of his investigations of the Teamsters Union pension fund (the fund was being looted by the Mafia).
-Carlos Marcello (Mafia boss in New Orleans) wanted Kennedy dead because of his (Kennedie’s) double-crossing of the cuban nationalist (the “Bay of Pigs” disaster)
There is very good evidence that Meyer Lansky (who had owned most of the Havana casinos and had paid Hoover off for years) ordered the hit: this had to be approved by the top mob bosses (Giancana in Chicago, Bonanno in NY, Gambino,etc.) Permission from the Mafia was granted, and Jack Ruby arranged for Oswald to make the hit. Ruby then killed Oswald, and died himslf in jail.
After the hit, Joe Kennedy met with Gambino in Atlantic City, and both men embraced, preventing a Kennedy-Mafia war. It was the only way to prevent a total mob-government war.
Hoover was totally under the thumb of the Mafia…his homosexuality and numerous affairs with gay prostitutes were concealed…as long as he never attacked the Mafia.

J. Edgar Hoover and Joe Kennedy had always been friendly, and JFK and Hoover had always been polite to each other, at least, with Hoover going so far as to warn Kennedy about his relationship with Judith Campbell. (JFK went out of his way to be deferential to Hoover) It’s true that Hoover and Bobby didn’t get along very well (mostly due to black civil rights, and what Hoover saw as Bobby Kennedy’s sloppiness), but the FBI did fully cooperate in the Mafia crackdown. I don’t really think there’s the evidence you think there is for a Hoover connection.

In 1995 SS Agent George Hickey sued Bonar Messinger over a book published in 1992. A Baltimore Judge threw out the case because it was filed too late after publication. It would have been an interesting case because Messinger claims Hickey accidentally discharged his AR-15 after Oswald’s 2nd shot. What would prove Messinger’s claim of a different bullet is the fragments in Kennedy’s brain. A convenient theory (evidence misplaced) or a theory of cover-up (evidence destroyed). I’m not sure why Mr Hickey waited so long to dispute the book considering he was given advance warning by the publisher and author.

I found the book (Mortal Error) an interesting read because of it’s outrageous claim. Synopsis
I remember President Ford publicly calling for the release of information regarding the event (after he was out of office). I always wondered what he meant by it because he was on the commission.

I pulled a couple of interesting tidbits out of the article I linked. Obviously I can’t all of them.

“I now fully realize that only the powers of the Presidency will reveal the secrets of my brother’s death.” --Robert Kennedy, June 3, 1968, two days before he was assassinated

In 1964, President Lyndon Johnson signed Executive Order No. 11652, which stipulated that assassination evidence be locked up in the National Archives until the year 2039

An inventory of JFK assassination evidence in 1966 revealed that the president’s brain and skull fragments were missing from the National Archives

“We said that the Commission found no evidence of conspiracy, foreign or domestic. Those words were very carefully drafted.” --Warren Commission member Gerald Ford

One distinct problem with the theory as that no one saw, let alone heard the sound of a rather loud rifle going off on the limo. The theory seems to depend on a ‘flash’ in a film (not Zapruder’s) being interpeted as a gun going off. Several have pointed out that the gun wasn’t even pointed in the right direction to blow Kennedy’s head off.

Surprisingly, The Book Mortal Error is quite in the anti-conspiracy arena.

As I understand it, Hickley lost his case against the publisher (dismiessed as you point out), but did get a settlement from the author.

Mr. Miskatonic Quote:

**One distinct problem with the theory as that no one saw, let alone heard the sound of a rather loud rifle going off on the limo. The theory seems to depend on a ‘flash’ in a film (not Zapruder’s) being interpeted as a gun going off. Several have pointed out that the gun wasn’t even pointed in the right direction to blow Kennedy’s head off.

Surprisingly, The Book Mortal Error is quite in the anti-conspiracy arena.

As I understand it, Hickley lost his case against the publisher (dismiessed as you point out), but did get a settlement from the author. **

Two witnesses, Austin Miller and Royce Skelton, thought one of the shots came from near the presidential limousine (a quote from my link). I thought there were more mentioned in the book but I’m not THAT interested in the material to look for it.

I never heard about a settlement but would be interested in hearing about it.

I’m not a huge conspiracy buff, just found the book interesting. I don’t recall the author using a photo of a flash as evidence. I do have my own questions. You’d think if there was a different gun involved then the sound would be appreciably different. The policeman’s keyed radio should have provided a source of analysis that could be quantified by frequency and duration. I also find it hard to believe someone misplaces the brain of a president who was shot in the head.

As I said before, I have been intrigued by President Ford’s public request to open the sealed evidence. I’m not hugely interested in defending the book as much as I find it interesting.

Probably something along the lines of what happened back around '94, when the government released oodles of Kennedy assassination records that had previously been classified. A few interesting tidbits were found, but nothing at all indicating a conspiracy to kill the president.

My first impulse was to label this a f***ing lie. But I realize that you probably believe the quote to be accurate. It is not accurate. Not at all.

Because RFK didn’t want his brother’s brain becoming a curiosity item.

B.F.D.

Frank Sheeran, according to his new postumous memoir, which apparently is pretty convincing.

In the case of all the others you list, yes, they were killed by lone gunmen. But Hoffa was clearly a mob hit, whether Sheeran did it or not.

saluki fan - Well, here’s how I see it (I call it the “Oliver Stone explanation, slightly modified*”)…

Lee Harvey Oswald spends some time in the Soviet Union. He learns about their mindsets, their ideals.

He spends some time in the Marines and learns about our own government.

He hooks up with various fringe groups. Cuban refugees. Mafia grunts. Communists. Anarchists. Punks. They further shape his worldview.

It becomes clear that a lot of them, for whatever reason, don’t like President Kennedy at all. The ex-Cubans are particularly incensed, mainly because of the Bay of Pigs debacle.

Oswald gets a crazy idea in his head about killing the President. He lets everyone he can trust know about his plans. The more people involved to take the heat off of him, the better.

The fateful day arrives…

And all his supposed allies completely fail to give him any support whatsoever, and Oswald ends up doing the job all by himself. Shocked and bewildered at being left for dead, he’s unable to escape and is soon caught, stammering denials all the way to lockup.

And everyone has a huge laugh at his expense. Particularly the ex-Cubans. (“How’s THAT for a Bay of Pigs, Americano? Heh heh heh…”)

P.S.: Next time, you might want to do a search, as a lot of us have become really jaded by this subject. But then, you probably figured that out already. :slight_smile:

  • Stone, as you’ll recall, claimed that it was our federal government that orchestrated the assassination, whereas I firmly believe that this is just flat-out impossible.

I’m with Starving Artist, the back and throat wounds look level to me.

For Ilsa_Lund, who said: “Why not do anything rational, as opposed to the monumental screwup this assasination would rate as were it truly a conspiracy?”

It’s called “The Fog of War”

Sorry folks, but I have an innate distrust of gov’t. And how come nobody mentioned the military/industrial complex? Who was that president who warned about it in his departure speech? Eisenhower, I think? Who was Kennedy’s predicessor (sp?, I based it on the predicate… get it… predicate…ferget it)

Anyhoo, Ike, right? And didn’t JFK want to get out of Vietnam.

What’s the phrase? Motive and opportunity?

But in the end, where’s the beef?(proof)
Eric
ps
If he was assasinated, it may have been the begining of the end of what we learned back in grade school about our gov’t. That which this country was supposed to be about. Of and by the People…
Eric

Take a look at them here:

http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/angle.jpg

I know you will most likely think I’m trying to invent bogus issues in order to bolster my own analysis of events, but I believe I’ve spotted a flaw in the way the measurements in these photos were taken.

Note the heavy creases of skin at the back of Kennedy’s neck. Note also the metal brace supporting Kennedy’s head. It appears to me that Kennedy’s head is at a somewhat unnatural angle in these photos. It appears to me that his head is tilted backward somewhat from its normal upright position. Since the measurement is taken from the bottom of the ear, the position of the measuring point can vary considerably depending upon how far back the head is tilted.

If I tilt my head back to approximate the position of Kennedy’s head in the brace and so that the skin on the back of my neck bunches up like Kennedy’s, and then place the tip of my thumb on my collarbone and the tip of my index finger on the bottom of my ear lobe, I get one measurement. Then, by holding that position with my thumb and forefinger and moving my head into its normal upright position, I find that the tip of my index finger now rests halfway up my ear, a distance of approximately 1.25" to 1.5" inches. Needless to say, this wreaks all kinds of havoc with the degree of the angle required to produce Kennedy’s neck wound, and results in a much more nearly level bullet path.

Try it for yourself. I think you’ll come to a different conclusion.

The position of the ear was not used as a reference. The length of the ear was used to show how far 8 cm is in the photo, and since we know that the entrance wound was 5.6 cm below where the shoulder meets the neck (a point about an inch below the hairline in the photo), you can measure down about 0.6 ears to see where the bullet hole is, in the side view. You can also see where the exit wound is, and how those to points clearly require a pretty good downward slope.

I’ll put this puppy to rest. I did it. Of course, I was 13 years shy of being born yet, but since I take the rap for everything else that goes wrong around me I’ll be magnanimous and take this hit too.

There. Mystery solved.

Starving, I don’t care if the autopsy report says JFK had six nipples, a vagina, and hooves. I can’t imagine any evidence found at an autopsy that would outweigh the fact that people saw Oswald shooting the President.

You are correct. In my haste I misread the text in the lower right box. Now I’m somewhat at a loss to explain how the bullet’s path could have been level, but give me some time… :smiley:

But still, if the shot came from high above and to the right of Kennedy, why does the path of the bullet not travel from right to left as well as down through Kennedy’s neck?

Oh, oh…I’ve got it. The neck shooter was 21 degrees above Kennedy and shooting from an upper level window of the building across the street to the right of the School Book Depository.

Whew…that was a close one. :stuck_out_tongue:

Uh…how old are you? I dare, double-dare and triple-dare you to cite one person who, with his or her own eyes, saw Oswald shooting at Kennedy. If you can come up with one it’ll be the first time in 41 years I’ve ever heard of this person.

As an aside, I would point out I did speculate Oswald could have fired the shot that hit Connally. If you can cite the person you refer to, maybe this person saw Oswald firing at Kennedy, but not hitting him.

See how it all fits together?