Well, Bush lives at 1600 Pennsylvania Ave. We, and the rest of the world, know where he lives. I have yet to hear where Osama lives. If the great almighty OBL wants to kill off the US lifestyle, why hasn’t he gotten close? I think, IMHO, the US military has the upper hand overall.
Diogenes, I thought I was able to see some of your points, and I’ve tried to take some of your views with a grain of salt. Hell, I’ve offered buying you a ticket to the Viking/Packer game (I was serious about that), but you’ve lost me here.
Osama is more brave than Bush? Bush has an address. He speaks to public media rather than taping something from a cave and having it delivered to Al-Jazeera anonymously.
I think I’m starting to understand where your loyalty is.
No-one is even debating who has the ‘upper hand’ militarily. And I’m not sure where the loyalty of individual posters was raised or relevant. And what exactly does having an address have to do with bravery?
Frivolous though this thread might be, I think you need to look up ‘bravery’ in the dictionary…
Mind you, that goes for a lot of people, the concept of bravery is always completely misrepresented, so people (who are not on our side) who will attack troops with vastly superior weaponery and training are labelled ‘cowardly’, whereas airforce pilots (who are on our side) who drop bombs from a great height with very little possible chance of any harm coming to themselves are of course ‘brave’.
What got me to respond to this thread was the “point” that Osama is “braver” than Bush. This is silly. No discourse on the OP, just pointing out that OBL is a punk-ass bitch. I have a few firearms, and if he wants to sack up, I’ll gladly have a “talk” with him. Bring it on you goat-feltcher.
But, he wants to hide out in caves, and give videos to Al-Jazeera to try for the sympathy vote. I can guarantee, if this shit-bag tries this shit here, he’s dead. Guaranteed.
Where I live, we have no problem taking life if it’s justified. Unless it’s a judicial type-deal.
Like it or not, that’s how it is. Don’t hate me for it. I don’t make the rules.
Now go ahead and slam me for something I have no control over.
Hmm, well us Brits are less armed to the teeth than you guys as you know but I promise you know that if Osama turns up at my house, I’ll damn well keep him chatting until the police show up. That’ll learn him.
I think that we have to realize that physical courage is not in itself an indication of moral virtue. You can be a bad person and and still be brave. A lot of psychopaths in prison, including mafia types and gang bangers, have physical courage. It doesn’t mean they’re good people or that they’re admirable in any way.
In this case, I thing that ObL has shown a set of balls in being willing to bring down the wrath of the US on himself. He had to have known before 9/11 that there would be a massive retaliation and that he would probably get killed. I think that shows physical courage on his part. That doesn’t mean I think he’s a good person.
I think we have to get over the notion that our enemies can’t possess courage or that anyone who is evil must also be a coward. That does not serve us well in fighting them.
I actually think he would kill himself- or order his men to kill him- before he would allow himself to be captured. Better to die a martyr than live as a zoo exhibit like Hussein.
Actually, I think he would do “suicide by cop”… well, “suicide by American soldier”… if cornered, he’d charge out guns blazing instead of being captured. Make himself look like a real hero, y’know.
How ever that “dental exam” shot got out, it was definitely bad taste. Having said that I don’t see Hussein as being in a “zoo exhibit”. The way it’s been handled I’m more surprised that the complaint isn’t about how little we know about his captivity.
One of Hitler’s henchmen was sentenced to living out his life in a large house and not having any contact even with the guards. I think in the end, he had wished he’d done what Hitler did. However, I don’t look at Hitler’s act as an act of courage or bravery.
The CIA and Richard Clark were out to kill Osama way before 9/11. This was made impossible because Clinton had more important matters as priorities coupled with the fact that he had that problem with impeachment (that is a fact not a judgement). 9/11 with Bush in office did mean there was nothing to hold us back from going after Osama. I do remember Osama stating that he didn’t think we as a country had the resolve to go after him. He may have just been taunting us or perhaps it was a major miscalculation (he might not even know the answer to that question).
Beautifully written. I have no other comment to make except that it gave me even more faith in where your loyality lies.
Bin Laden doesn’t recruit and send minions anywhere. He is not this all powerful mastermind that has been sold to you. He’s a money man. He plans nothing. People come to him with ideas and he gives them money. The west has helped OBL create this image of him as the great evil terror planner. Any serious journalist who talks about OBL talks about him as a money man not a planner.
As to the OP I wouldn’t consider either of them as brave. OBL is convinced that he is fighting on the side of God. Why should he fear death if an eternity of joy was awaiting him. Not brave IMO as he doesn’t fear death.
I don’t think Bush has done anything that I would define as brave.
Oh, I agree fully. I was vastly simplifying the opposition the way Bush has. The real question I’m asking is, who is braver, Bush or the terrorists, but saying Osama is easier.
Just wanted to echo yojimbo’s comments. Neither puts themselves directly into harms way; it’s an abstract thing, in that what they order puts them in danger. Like the analogy given in the other thread, both are smokers - their lives are in greater danger, but not in the more direct sense.
Neither are on the front lines, really. Osama has a slight edge in this, but in either case it’s the subordinates getting dirty.
Similarly for terrorists. They, by definition, go after “soft targets” and avoid direct fights. Not that they could afford a direct fight!
Um, Osama bin Laden has been pretty much “in harm’s way” for decades now, first with the Soviets and local warlords, then with us (keeping in mind that he was a wanted fellon for several notable terrorist attacks).
George Bush ran away from going to war, Osama ran straight into it.
(Not to heap praise on Osama or anything, but let’s be real here)
Er…not to be flip or anything, but who cares? Hitler was personally brave too from all accounts…he was highly decorated in WWI wasn’t he? Much ‘braver’ than, say, FDR, who never served in the military at all (that I recall…especially with his disability). What difference does it make…and why even ask this question as it has no real meaning?
To answer this totally BS question…Osama is probably personally braver than Bush (though bravery is a situational thing and we really don’t KNOW how personally brave Bush is). He’s also an order of magnitude more twisted in his belief system and his actions. He NEEDS killing…Bush merely needs to be retired.
Why? Who gives a fuck about the relative bravery of terrorists…or Bush for that matter? What does this matter to you? Personally I think ‘terrorists’ are generally cowards at their root…i.e. people who engage in direct attacks against easy civilian targets with the goal being to simple kill as many civilians as you can to inspire terror…they are FUCKING COWARDLY CURS!! ‘Brave’ would be engaging the military units of the nation (US, Israel, Russia, etc.) that you have a problem with. Hell, if they aren’t afraid to die, whats the fucking problem ehe?
Must have missed that thread. Neither of these seem like GD material to me, but by all means carry on. I will agree with you that personal bravery isn’t exactly high on my list of must have’s for a leader of a nation.
BTW, re: Bush is brave…sometimes stubornness can be mistaken for bravery. I will say he was a fighter pilot, so I guess you could draw some small conclusions from that I suppose.
Really? I’m not totally up on Osama’s career; from what I know, he was more in a figurehead/commander position and not actually firing bullets etc. at the enemy. If that’s the case then, hell, I guess he is more brave.
Oh, I’m pretty sure that intelligence and bravery are mutually exclusive properties from person to person and from event to event.
Huh? Are you saying he wasn’t a fully qualified fighter pilot? Are you saying that all the folks who are in the military but have never been in combat aren’t…er, well in the military?
You are letting your dislike for the man get the best of you…AGAIN. You really need to get a grip DtC.