I’m sayoing that his technical status as a “fighter pilot” was not an indication of courage but was the result of a dodge to avoid the war.
I’m saying that being in the military is not a per se proof of courage, especially when the particular duty chosen is chosen specifically as a tactic to avoid physical danger.
If all he wanted to do was dodge, I’m sure he could have thought of something else that was easier to do, no? Why go to the bother of joining the National Guard at all and risk your life in an air plane when there was easier duty out there. Or are you saying he never qualified as a ‘fighter pilot’ at all? I really don’t get WTH you are talking about here to be honest.
DtC…re-read what I actually wrote, then explain how your last post has anything to do with it. Here:
Does it sound like I’m making either a definitive or a sweeping claim here with words like ‘I suppose’ and ‘some small conclusions’?? I DO think some tentitive conclusions can be drawn…i.e. it takes a level of courage to fly a fighter jet for the US military even in times of peace (especially at that time, when the death by accident rate was higher than it is today). Its inconclusive if Bush has more raw courage (and to my mind irrelevant as well) than ObL…Bush was never tested in combat, so we’ll never know who ACTUALLY has more courage.
-XT
Osama Bin Laden: Led Afghan rebels against the Soviet army. Repeatedly evaded capture from American and Pakistani forces, still free three years after 9/11 attacks.
George W. Bush: Got family friends to keep him out of Vietnam and into a do-nothing champaign unit. Requires campaign rallies to be staffed with 100% loyal voters, for fear of seeing a protester or hearing a dissenting voice.
The answer seems rather obvious.
George Bush is a fighter pilot the same way I’m an EMT. I meet all the Red Cross credentials.
OK, it is fair to say that George Bush was technically a fighter pilot. He flew fighter aircraft.
But he is a veteran of no war. He never fired a weapon in defense of this or any other country. The extent of his military exploits are a few dead ducks every season. Flying a fighter plane without shooting at anyone or having anyone shoot at you does not make you brave, unless you’re afraid of flying.
Both men sent other people to die for what their own belief systems called the right thing to do, rather than taking any action that would endanger them themselves. I have other, better uses for the word “brave” than either of those men.
I’m saying that his qualification as a fighter pilot was a technical qualification only and not a substantive description in any practical sense. He was trained to fly a fighter plane (albeit an obsolete one) but he was not a pilot who actually fought.
I do not believe it took courage for Bush to join the ANG, or to learn to fly a plane. It certainly wasn’t anywhere in the ballpark of a guy who…say…volunteered for Swift Boat duty in Vietnam.
As to why not an easier duty, I don’t know that there was an easier duty, and I’m sure there wasn’t a more prestigious one. His father was fighter pilot (a real one) and I’m sure the job played right into Bush’s ego, his elitism and his sense of entitlement. Why take a job with the rabble if he could be a rock star pilot?
And pilots get waaay more pussy, btw.
DtC…re-read what I actually wrote, then explain how your last post has anything to do with it. Here:
Does it sound like I’m making either a definitive or a sweeping claim here with words like ‘I suppose’ and ‘some small conclusions’?? I DO think some tentitive conclusions can be drawn…i.e. it takes a level of courage to fly a fighter jet for the US military even in times of peace (especially at that time, when the death by accident rate was higher than it is today). Its inconclusive if Bush has more raw courage (and to my mind irrelevant as well) than ObL…Bush was never tested in combat, so we’ll never know who ACTUALLY has more courage.
-XT
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Oops. Submitted too soon. Here’s the rest.
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DtC…re-read what I actually wrote, then explain how your last post has anything to do with it. Here:
Does it sound like I’m making either a definitive or a sweeping claim here with words like ‘I suppose’ and ‘some small conclusions’?? I DO think some tentitive conclusions can be drawn…i.e. it takes a level of courage to fly a fighter jet for the US military even in times of peace (especially at that time, when the death by accident rate was higher than it is today).I do not believe that it takes any extraordinary courage to take a few flying lessons. I also believe that it must be taken into consideration that Bush’s flying lessons were chosen as an alternative to serving in combat in Vietnam. In that light it required no courage at all.
Well this I more or less agree with. No conclusion whatever can be drawn about Bush’s personal courage from the fact that he chose flying lessons over combat service in Vietnam…or can it?
Well, not that it matters, but Kerry didn’t volunteer for Swift Boat Duty either (if this was a veiled reference to Kerry that is…unless you are talking about swift boats in general of course). Not that I was one of the folks who questioned either Kerry’s courage or service mind you…but he didn’t volunteer for combat either. I don’t think that lessens him btw…it takes a special kind of guy to VOLUNTEER to risk your life for your country.
I actually do think it takes a level of courage to fly fighters, not that it matters much. THere is a bit more too it that ‘a few flying lessons’, though I conceed that if you love flying the risk is just incidental…and I think Bush actually did like to fly.
Nope. Its something we’ll never know…and at this point its irrelevant IMO.
-XT
John Kerry specifically requested Swift Boat duty for his second Tour of Duty during the Vietnam War.
You are correct (except it was his first tour)…my appologies.
Of course, when he signed up he didn’t really expect it would involve direct combat (by his own admission), but still, he DID volunteer for them, no doubt. Again, sorry…I was mistaken.
-XT
Let’s remember that Kerry was in the Navy. His options for duty in-country were rather limited. He couldn’t have volunteered for the Infantry. The Swift Boats were about as close to the shit as he could get.
And it was duty he didn’t have to volunteer for. He never had to go in-country at all. He could have gone home after his first tour with his ticket punched.
Hey, I was in the Navy too…I totally understand his decision. Hell, I would have made the same one honestly if those were my options. Command, even of a small boat, is a great ticket to punch for a young officer. But remember, when he volunteered for ‘Swift Boats’ it WASN’T as close to the shit as he could get, as it was essentially a scouting force at the time…unlike the heavy combat element it later became (after he was transfered).
Again, this doesn’t in any way diminish him DtC…wish you’d stop with that. After all he WAS over there, no? By his own choice, no?
-XT