Who is right, or nudity/art/relationships don't mix?

Great Debates
1

Okay, I think this is an extremely good question, so good that it deserves GD status over IMHO status.

It goes like this: A good friend of mine (I’ll call him “Marc”) is engaged to a girl (I’ll call her “Sue”) who recently did some nude modelling for a painter. Marc had reservations about it in the beginning, and tried to be okay with it, but he ended up confessing to me that it really did bother him.

So there’s this girl he’s friends with (I’ll call her “Jane”) who wants to be a SuicideGirl. SuicideGirls.com asks for a portfolio of non-nude, semi-nude, and fully nude work. Marc has made a small hobby out of photography, so Jane asks him if he will do the picture-taking. He agrees, then tells Sue. Sue goes absolutely ballistic, or as Marc described it, “like Godzilla on PCP.” Safe to say, Sue stopped nude modelling.

Yes, Marc did agree to Jane’s proposal as sort of a subtle hint that he wasn’t comfortable with Sue’s artistic endeavor. However, Marc’s question was, “How is Sue’s being a nude model any different from my being a nude photographer?” The man has a point. Sue’s argument is that what she’s doing is for art while what he would be doing (he cancelled the agreement with Jane) would pretty much be pornography. Honestly, I personally can’t see much of a difference.

Dopers, I leave the question in your hands. I promised him an answer tomorrow. Thanks.

Adam

2

In my opinion, I don’t feel that this is healthy at all, regardless of the issues of nudity, Marc would have much better just spoken to his wife about his issues, I mean in this case it could have probably been resolved without need for this style of confrontation. Sue and Marc are, in my opinion at equal fault; Sue should have made totally sure Marc was comfortable with the situation and Marc should not have gone and agreed to take such photos without first discussing it with Sue, the fact his motive was “subtle hint[ing]” makes it all the worse, as I said he should have just spoken outright. To the actual issue, I also fail to see the line between pornography and art here to be honest I think, in a removed, reserved situation they are at least equivalents in this case.

3

This really has nothing to do with art. It wouldn’t have mattered if he was taking nude photos, painting her nude, or using her as a model for a sculpture.

It’s simply a double standard. “It’s supposed to be fine when I do it but if you do it then :mad: .” Happens all the time in personal relationships.

4

I don’t even see this as a porn vs. art debate. What was her relationship with the painter? Did she know her/him before modelling? Did she ever see her/him socially? If both answers are “no,” what she did was completely different than taking girlie shots of a female friend. I don’t know what kind of relationship they have, but some people get jealous when their significant others have friends of the opposite sex, so this might worry quite a few women (though, IMHO, it is easier for me to respect a painter if her work’s any good than someone taking nude pics for an online porn site, even if it’s a pretty cool one. Maybe I’m old fashioned).

5

Most relationships require that you talk with your partner before you get nekkid with anyone else for any reason. Neither of your friends seemed to respect this about each other and the relationship they share. They probably need to work on their communication skills (and lessen their passive-aggressive tendencies) before tying the knot.

To break it down:

  • Sue definitely needed to talk to Marc before accepting the nude modelling gig.
  • Marc needed to be more honest about his reservations and feelings in general.
  • Marc needed to talk to Sue before agreeing with Jane to take her photos.

Though Marc’s point was good, being in a healthy relationship isn’t about scoring points or being right. It’s about communicating honestly and regularly with your partner.

6

Cat Fight has an excellent point. It’s clear that Marc had a prior relationship with his model (even if only friendship) whereas Sue’s relationship with her painter is undefined. If the two were similar, Sue is more in the wrong than Marc (although as Moi has noted Marc owed it to Sue to be more upfront about his feelings). If Sue was just responding to an ad, it’s a little less clear.

I’m at work, what’s a SuicideGirl?

7

Zakalwe, Suicide Girls is an online community featuring beautiful, punky and/or gothic nekkid ladies. So, while normal 'net porn has implants and cum shots, SG has piercings and pin-up-inspired photography of gals with multi-colored hair. Additionally, the site also has a strong community element (include journals by the SG and forums). SG’s been around since 2001 and a book of SGs was published last summer.

8

I would say that theoretically there is no hypocracy in wanting to pose nude but not wanting him to shoot nude - but only if she’d give up posing if he didn’t want her to pose. I mean, if it didn’t bother him that she’s posing, then she’s doing no harm, and it doesn’t mean she can’t be bothered by him shooting. Of course he is bothered, so if she continued she’d be a hypocrite.

I don’t think the importance of the piece has any relevance. You either are bothered by your spouse naked with another girl/guy, or you aren’t.

I also think her blowing up at him was unjustified - unless she read it less as a subtle hint, and more of a “haha, revenge!” type thing.

9

In my opinion: You’re throwing pearls before swine.

This couple you speak of are F’d. Judging from what little information you gave me in your op; I’d say this relationship has a serious co-dependacy issues along with passive agressive issues as well.

My advice to YOU Agent Foxtrot, is stay the hell out of it. It’s not your business (even if asked).

Kudos to you for trying to help. But these people are beyond reach.

Or at least they need to figure this shit out for themselves or better yet realize they don’t need to be in a relationship together.

10

Forgot to add:

You could just say to them what I always say to my couple friends that try to drag me in their arguments, which is:

“Hey! If you’re gonna involve me in your arguements; I think it only fair that I get to participate in the make-up sex as well!” :smiley:

That sounds fair, right?

11

Yeah. It’s very weird that you know so much about someone else’s relationship.

All these folks are crazy. Sue sounds like a bitch to me, but neither’s gonna get my vote for Spouse of the Year.

12

Take the nudity out of the picture (so to speak.) We have Sue doing something Marc doesn’t like but didn’t clearly tell her he didn’t like. Well, sorry, Marc. Unless you have found the one mind-reading girl on the planet and she turned off her powers this time, you have no real leg to stand on. Pretending you like it, not saying you don’t like it, “trying to be a good sport” - whatever, in the end it’s all posturing, and if you don’t speak up clearly, the girl can’t be expected to coddle your ego. If you clearly and consistently state your true feelings, worries and reservations and she does it anyway, then, yes, she’s not respecting you or your relationship. But that doesn’t seem to be the case here.

Secondly, we have Marc doing something with the intent of making Sue angry. Bzzzzt! There’s an issue right there. Well, it worked, so what’s his beef? That she’s being clear in communicating her anger, whereas he wasn’t? What the hell is that about?

Essentially, they were indeed both bothered by a very similar issue, but she was honest about being bothered and he wasn’t. Furthermore (and more importantly in my eyes) he was intentionally trying to prove a point without stating the point, whereas she was doing an activity that interested her. He was trying to hurt her, she was trying to get a picture painted.

Really, substitute the issue, and we have a more common problem. Plenty of couples see this over spending money or hanging out with other friends. The real issue is not communicating your feelings clearly and (I know this isn’t clinically correct, but it’s the popular usage) passive aggressive behavior - hiding feelings of antagonism behind “fairness”.

I’m sure Sue’s not innocent in the entire relationship, but in this little vignette, I’d counsel her to seriously look at Marc and decide if he’s worth it.

As for “art” vs. “porn”, it’s pretty irrelevant. It’s about clearly communicating your needs to your partner and the two of you deciding together if those needs are compatible enough for a relationship.