Who the heck are the "post gays"?

Great Debates
21

I’ve definitely known gays who are- the term I use- “over the rainbow” (OTR), meaning that they live only in gay-ghettos, associate primarily with other gays (not just romantically), watch any gay themed movie and buy (sometimes read) any gay themed book that comes out, have rainbows or Human Rights Campaign (can’t just say HRC anymore- anyway, it’s the yellow equal sign on the blue field) on every possession just about, and if some company marketed “It’s Rainin’ Menthols” and “Butter Boy: the Peanut Butter for Gays” I’ve no doubts they’d buy them. However, they’re a very small percentage of the gay population and usually
1-they live in certain sections of big cities (at very least sizable college town)
2- they’re usually (not always) young and fairly recently out
3- they are often people who’ve had experiences with homophobia that left them bitter
It’s a mild form of fanaticism. All sub-groups of any size whether Baptist or gay or bipolar or senior citizen have people who define themselves by whatever demographic or trait at once connects them to a large number of people yet at the same time distinguishes them from the great majority of people. Whether or not they’re losers or asses depends strictly on the individual: I’ve known OTR gays who were nice, vile, intelligent, stupid, pathetic, driven, annoying, humorless, vapid, etc. or some combination thereof- there’s really no sweeping generalization. (I’ve also known Jewish people who seem to redirect every subject to the West Bank and or the Holocaust, AA members who pretty much meet you with “Hi I’m Julie and I’m an alcoholic… would you like to try our Philly Cheese combo meal?”, and Democrats who are more obsessed with George Bush than George Bush is- variations on a theme- self-identification to the point of fanaticism, often due to a need to both belong and stand-out.)

Any way, the point for saying it is that while I don’t know if I’m a post-gay or galloping-gay or retro-gay or Hee-Haw gay (mostly these days it seems I’m in the gay reserves), I think that for me and for most other gays how important our “gayosity” is in our identity depends largely on the day and on the context and on the news and society. With all the economic downturns/political election/various scandals/other issues gays are taking a somewhat welcome hiatus from front and center page right now, which is kind of nice in a way- it’ll be back.
Generally speaking I think that being gay is pretty much exactly on par with my other demographics (white, male, 41, middle class, southern, American, agnostic, etc.) in defining who I am. I really don’t think most gays obsess over their sexuality’s role in self-identity as other people obsess over gayness.
I actually think that people who are so vocal and anti the gay rights movements/gay activists/gay pride displays, etc., could- if they are truly wanting the gays to reced into near invisibility- do little to accomplish that goal that would be more effective than to vote yes to most gay civil rights legislation. Once the legalization of gay marriage and a national gay anti-discrimination legislation and other (imo perfectly reasonable) equalities are granted I think gays will be far less “obsessed” or “self-identifying” than they are now.

22

I’ve never heard the term “post gay” but I kind of like it. It means we’re maybe growing.

I’m older. I don’t like the gym, I don’t like the circuit parties, I don’t like constantly meeting and socializing with the most fabulous people I can find, I’m not really into the gay community anymore. I’m not into trying to be perfect, in general.

I’d be cautious about the term though. It also means “no big deal anymore” which simply isn’t true. We DO NOT have equal rights, so we’re not truly post yet. Gays still get executed and persecuted folks. Please don’t forget that. We may be safe in Hollywood, but we’re not safe.

23

[QUOTE=levdrakon]
We DO NOT have equal rights, so we’re not truly post yet. Gays still get executed and persecuted folks. Please don’t forget that. We may be safe in Hollywood, but we’re not safe.
[/QUOTE]

That’s a little over the top isn’t it? Have more gay people been murdered or injured in recent years than other demographic groups?

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[QUOTE=Justin_Bailey]
That’s a little over the top isn’t it? Have more gay people been murdered or injured in recent years than other demographic groups?
[/QUOTE]
Do they have to be? Being a “post” something to me means you’ve achieved your goals and everything is hunky-dory.

And yeah, people get murdered or officially executed for being gay. Here’s a Time article about Jamaica, for instance.

Not just Jamaica of course. In places like Saudi Arabia, Iran and Iraq you can be executed by the state. OFFICIALLY EXECUTED BY THE STATE.

But whatever. Here in the States gays don’t have equal rights and protection under the law, so it’s hard for me to consider myself totally “post gay” like the battle’s been won.

Why do you have to get murdered more than other demographics to get civil rights street cred?

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[QUOTE=levdrakon]
Do they have to be? Being a “post” something to me means you’ve achieved your goals and everything is hunky-dory.

Why do you have to get murdered more than other demographics to get civil rights street cred?
[/QUOTE]

I don’t know. That just seems like a rather limited definition of post. I think astro nailed it. Being “post-gay” is when you stop identifying so strongly as “someone who wants someone of the same sex to do naughty things to me” and just start indentifying yourself as “Billy Joe Bob, good to meet you.”

Also, I agree, there is a large number of homophobic assholes that want to stamp all over gay civil rights. But to make the leap from that to “they’re trying to kill us” is a joke. The number of people who attack other people for being gay is vanishly small and no larger than any other group being targeted by other groups that dislike them.

Basically, no one’s out to get you.

26

[QUOTE=Justin_Bailey]
I don’t know. That just seems like a rather limited definition of post. I think astro nailed it. Being “post-gay” is when you stop identifying so strongly as “someone who wants someone of the same sex to do naughty things to me” and just start indentifying yourself as “Billy Joe Bob, good to meet you.”

Also, I agree, there is a large number of homophobic assholes that want to stamp all over gay civil rights. But to make the leap from that to “they’re trying to kill us” is a joke. The number of people who attack other people for being gay is vanishly small and no larger than any other group being targeted by other groups that dislike them.

Basically, no one’s out to get you.
[/QUOTE]

Yep, I’m a “post-gay,” then. “Gay” doesn’t define who I am, it’s just one aspect of me that I don’t dwell on anymore than, say, having blue eyes. To steal from Sampiro, I’ve known plenty OTR gays and to be honest, they tend piss me off. The OTR gays account for many of the negative stereotypes associated with “gay culture,” IMO.

But yeah. I’m a guy who likes guys, among other things. I never understood the concept of “gay pride” and I tend to enjoy straight clubs moreso than gay clubs (unless I’m looking to hook up). Being “gay” doesn’t define me anymore than being white does.

[QUOTE=levdrakon]
I’d be cautious about the term though. It also means “no big deal anymore” which simply isn’t true. We DO NOT have equal rights, so we’re not truly post yet. Gays still get executed and persecuted folks. Please don’t forget that. We may be safe in Hollywood, but we’re not safe.
[/QUOTE]

In many places, it’s “no big deal anymore.” For me, personally, I have never experienced persecution or any kind of outward negativity because of my sexual orientation. Perhaps it’s because I am kind of “post-gay” and don’t let being gay define me, or maybe it’s for some other reason. I’m aware that in some areas, gays are still persecuted for their sexual preference. Justin_Bailey’s above assessment of gay persecution is spot on, IMO. You may not feel safe, but I do. YMOV.

ETA: UrbanDictionary for the win. I like the first definition. Definition 2 seems to be the complete opposite, to me, but whatever. We’ll go with 1. :slight_smile:

27

[QUOTE=Otto]
All this pre-gay, post-gay, ante-gay, whatever bullshit just cements my belief that we should agree on four categories:
[/QUOTE]
I think we should agree on one category:

  1. All of us.

Beyond that, who the fuck cares?

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[QUOTE=atomicbadgerrace]
In many places, it’s “no big deal anymore.” For me, personally, I have never experienced persecution or any kind of outward negativity because of my sexual orientation. Perhaps it’s because I am kind of “post-gay” and don’t let being gay define me, or maybe it’s for some other reason. I’m aware that in some areas, gays are still persecuted for their sexual preference. Justin_Bailey’s above assessment of gay persecution is spot on, IMO. You may not feel safe, but I do. YMOV.
[/QUOTE]
Right. Grab another man, hold his hand and walk around. You either live in a safe gay ghetto where it’s “no big deal anymore” or you’re not living in the States. Okay, maybe you live in a large metro area and you feel sorta safe doing that, but that’s not 90% of the US.

Sorry, but I just don’t buy the “it’s no big deal anymore” thing when gays do not feel comfortable showing any display of affection to one another in most places in the states and they say “well, I just don’t feel the need to.” That’s internalized homophobia, not “post gay.”

I’m straight acting, but I don’t confuse that with not wanting to freak out the neighbors and claim I’m “post gay.”

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[QUOTE=Priceguy]
I think we should agree on one category:

  1. All of us.

Beyond that, who the fuck cares?
[/QUOTE]

Whoever you’re trying to fuck, presumably.

30

[QUOTE=levdrakon]
Right. Grab another man, hold his hand and walk around. You either live in a safe gay ghetto where it’s “no big deal anymore” or you’re not living in the States. Okay, maybe you live in a large metro area and you feel sorta safe doing that, but that’s not 90% of the US.
[/QUOTE]

:dubious: I don’t live in a “safe gay ghetto,” though I do live in an urban area (about 1mil in the city, give or take). When my boyfriend and I are out, we will often hold hands. Hell, sometimes we’ll even kiss briefly at dinner or something. And like I said, I’ve never suffered any persecution, negative comments, and I’ve never really noticed anyone staring awkwardly (though to be honest, I don’t look around to see who’s watching before I hold his hand or peck him on the cheek). We’ve done it here, we’ve done it in NYC, we’ve done it in Orlando, we’ve done it in D.C., we’ve done it at the beach… you get the idea. And like I said, I think a lot of it has to do with the fact that we don’t make it a big deal.

I never said you were wrong – I just said that in many places, it’s not a big deal. The same could be said about any number of other groups that aren’t tolerated by some other group. Where I grew up, DWB was the unofficial reason for a number of traffic stops. And yeah, it sucks. But to suggest that we can’t feel safe or be “post-gay” until everyone in the country is tolerant of homosexuality is just absurd, IMO.

Your mileage obviously varies, and that’s fine. You may not feel safe, but I do.

31

[QUOTE=levdrakon]
Right. Grab another man, hold his hand and walk around. You either live in a safe gay ghetto where it’s “no big deal anymore” or you’re not living in the States. Okay, maybe you live in a large metro area and you feel sorta safe doing that, but that’s not 90% of the US.
[/QUOTE]

You know, I hate to admit that I’m so acclimated to living in “flyover America” that I tend to forget this. I’m openly gay and I’ve had relatively little problem with it, but I’m also not dating anybody at the moment, and I can almost guarantee that if I kissed a boyfriend- no tongue, just on the lips, cheek even- best case scenario would involve getting called faggot and I’d almost certainly be asked to leave any business I was in. I’ve become so acclimated that it would not occur to me- when I’ve been dating it never has occurred to me or to him- to hold hands or make even the smallest pda that straight couples would take for granted in a public place unless it’s a gay bar or gay ghetto (and when in those it can be awkward because you’re not used to it). I can’t remember the last time I went to a movie outside of an art-house theater that there wasn’t “commentary” whenever two men kissed on screen, and as I’ve mentioned before- I’ve never heard anybody yell “That’s disgusting!” or “That shit’s just wrong!” during a rape or murder scene.

What irks me is that while it’s been a while since I made a comment about the above to somebody, I’ve gotten the same response several times when I have made it:

“Well personally I think it’s offensive and tasteless when straight people do a pda.”

I wanted to respond “On the one hand I can see why you say that, which leaves you the other hand free to fuck yourself. When was the last time you saw a straight couple get called names and physically assaulted for it?”

32

[QUOTE=atomicbadgerrace]
We’ve done it here, we’ve done it in NYC, we’ve done it in Orlando, we’ve done it in D.C., we’ve done it at the beach… you get the idea. And like I said, I think a lot of it has to do with the fact that we don’t make it a big deal.
[/QUOTE]
I’ve partied in those places, except I don’t know where your “here” is. Those are big, gay metropolitan areas. You say you’ve “done it.” You make it sound special. It’s not like you “ate pasta.” But you’ve “done it” like bungee jumping or something.

You’re not convincing me it’s okay to be gay all over America and worse, you allude to the fact there are places a black guy wouldn’t feel comfortable and apparently that’s normal. It’s not, or shouldn’t be. I don’t think you can be a “post black” when you don’t feel comfortable just being yourself anywhere, and by anywhere of course I don’t mean the most dangerous neighborhood you can find. No one is safe in SOME places. Duh.

What do you mean you “don’t make it a big deal?” What would you consider to be a “big deal?”

33

[QUOTE=levdrakon]
I’ve partied in those places, except I don’t know where your “here” is. Those are big, gay metropolitan areas.
[/QUOTE]

Okay, and those big, gay metropolitan areas are large population centers. They’re also the places I frequent most often. And I feel safe in them. I probably wouldn’t feel as safe if I were walking down the street in rural West Virginia, which is why I concede that your situation may be different, and that you may not feel safe. My point was that your blanket statement of “we are not safe” does not apply equally.

Oh, please. “Done it” refers to the act of PDA or handholding in public, in reference to the conversation. There was nothing special about it; and I’m sorry you tried to look for deeper meaning in my shortened reference to “I have participated in the activity you named.”

I wasn’t suggesting that it was okay to be gay all over America. My initial post even said

[QUOTE=me]
I’m aware that in some areas, gays are still persecuted for their sexual preference.
[/QUOTE]

I was suggesting that your generalization of “we are not safe” is a false blanket statement which does not apply to everyone.
And there are places where a black guy wouldn’t feel comfortable. And places where a gay guy would feel uncomfortable. And places where a woman would feel uncomfortable. It’s unfortunate, but it’s a fact of life. There will never be a time when everyone in this world will be accepted by every other member of society. It’s the way humans are. But, again, suggesting that we can’t be “post-gay” or “feel safe” until every street in America is rid of homophobia and no one will disagree with yours or my lifestyle is absurd, in my opinion.

See above, re: OTR gays. I’ve also dated more than one guy who, after a brief public kiss, would look around and make eye contact with people, as if to say “did you just see what we did? Yeah, we did that. Mmhmm.”

34

[QUOTE=pepperlandgirl]
Whoever you’re trying to fuck, presumably.
[/QUOTE]
We’ll work it out between ourselves.

35

My first thought was that “post-gay” must be after the operation, and now the person is “heterosexual” for all intents and purposes. I guess I’ve been in Thailand too long.

But I recently encountered the term “trans fag” in print recently. It seems this is someone who has gender-reassignment surgery and then adopts a homosexual lifestyle based on the new gender. For instance, a man becomes a woman and then takes a lesbian lover. I dunno, but unless the patient were wildly in love with the lesbian to begin with and could win her over only in this manner, I’d call these people unclear on the concept of gender reassignment.

36

[QUOTE=atomicbadgerrace]
My point was that your blanket statement of “we are not safe” does not apply equally.
[/QUOTE]
Fair enough. What I said was “we may be safe in Hollywood, but we’re not safe.” What I meant was we shouldn’t buy into a popular perception that being gay is all cool now, because we still live in a country where we don’t have equal rights and we can’t even openly serve in the military.

We’re not being hunted down by pitchfork & torch wielding mobs, but on the other hand no; it’s not always safe being openly gay either. “Safe” can mean not getting called “faggot” or losing your job or getting kicked out of your apartment and kicked out of your church or ostracized from your family or any number of less than pleasant things.

And yes, there are countries where you better not be gay, under penalty of death. That’s fucked.

South Africa treated blacks like shit and practically the whole world rallied against them. Execute gays? Well, the US feels those countries should enjoy their sovereignty.

37

[QUOTE=levdrakon]
Fair enough. What I said was “we may be safe in Hollywood, but we’re not safe.” What I meant was we shouldn’t buy into a popular perception that being gay is all cool now, because we still live in a country where we don’t have equal rights and we can’t even openly serve in the military.
[/QUOTE]

Indeed, but you can’t discount progress, either. The country has come a long way, even in the past twenty years.

Whether or not we should police the rest of the world is an entirely different discussion altogether. :wink:

38

[QUOTE=Siam Sam]
But I recently encountered the term “trans fag” in print recently. It seems this is someone who has gender-reassignment surgery and then adopts a homosexual lifestyle based on the new gender. For instance, a man becomes a woman and then takes a lesbian lover. I dunno, but unless the patient were wildly in love with the lesbian to begin with and could win her over only in this manner, I’d call these people unclear on the concept of gender reassignment.
[/QUOTE]
Huh? They’re just as clear on the concept as a man who becomes a woman and then takes a hetero lover.

39

[QUOTE=Siam Sam]
I’d call these people unclear on the concept of gender reassignment.
[/QUOTE]

Actually, I’d call you unclear on the concept of gender reassignment: it has to do with (surprise!) your gender, not your sexual orientation. Trans people show the same range of sexual orientations as non-trans people do: some trans men (female-to-male), for example, are attracted primarily to other men, as some non-trans men are, and therefore identify as gay men.

40

Moving thread from IMHO to Great Debates.