When Golda Meir was PM of Israel the miniskirt was in full fashion and the joke was that she could not wear one because her balls would show.
I had my doubts because Thatch never became known as ‘Maggie the Iron’ or something like that, which I thought was the pattern Malthus was primarily looking for.
I’m sticking with Gandhi, since that’s how he’s referred to the majority of the time (as Mahatma).
Did Malthus insist that the pattern has to be “[Foo] the [Bar]”? “Mahatma Gandhi” doesn’t fit that pattern. You know I’m with you on Gandhi, though, barring a ruling that the pattern has to include the word “the” before the epithet.
Cheers,
bcg
If mobsters can be considered statesman, then you have a whole can of worms to work through there.
And is Jimmy The Greek or Nick The Greek a candidate?
Well, if the rule is that all entries must fit the “ the [Y]” format, it’s a bit unfair to non-English speaking statesmen.
Naw, that rule would be too restrictive. I’d accept “The Iron Duke” for Welllington and “The Iron Lady” for Thatcher. However, I do have a question - should we distinguish between official epithets and nicknames? Perhaps the distinguishing feature between the two is whether the name is likely to appear in future history books - “Mahatma” certainly will, same as “Alfred the Great”, but will “The Iron Lady?”
There are certainly no lack of nick-names for politicians made up by their friends or foes - Reagan is “The Gipper”, etc. To my mind there is something rather different about, say, Alfred “the Great”.
I suspect, myself, that future history books will mention that Thatcher was called “The Iron Lady”, and that Reagan was called “The Gipper” (and that the books will explain why each nickname was applied to each), but that they won’t refer to them like that with every reference like history books do with “Alfred the Great” or “Mahatma Gandhi”.
Cheers,
bcg
Yeah, that more or less captures the distinction I was thinking about. Thanks.
It is odd but there doesn’t seem to be a single word which describes this form of address. “Sobriquet” would I think cover both - but not just the case of those names which in effect become the name by which the person is commonly referred (such as "Alfred ‘the Great’ ").
I’d say that’s mainly because standards for writing history books have changed (plus now pretty much everyone has a last name).
That’s certainly part of it - the need to know which “Alfred” you are talking about.
While it is descriptive and was given to her by other people, and while I’m sure it does qualify as an epithet, I think the OP was looking for a statesman who is usually known by that epithet. Ghandi is almost always accompanied by ‘Mahatma’, Ivan the Terrible and Vlad the Impaler are the standard ways of referring to those kings, etc. ‘The Iron Lady’ is not used all that often to refer to Margaret Thatcher - it’s probably used about as often as ‘Dubya’ is used to refer to George Bush, and similarly it wouldn’t usually be used in any impartial or formal context like in a news article.
What about the (former) Iraqi general universally known as Chemical Ali? Maybe not a statesman, but I’d argue that his name arose the same way as old-timey epithets like “Ethelred the Unready.”
“El Lider”? Not really. He has been called “El Caballo” (The Horse), “EL Barbudo” (The Bearded), “El Comandante” (The Commandant), but I have never heard him called “El Lider”.
Can I tell a joke here? I’ll try.
A drunk is standing on a corner in Havana yelling “Fidel, you’re an SOB! Fidel, you’re a thief!”. A group of policemen come by and start beating him up for disrespecting the Comandante.
The drunk says “But I wasn’t talking about the Comandante, there are many people named Fidel!”
To which the policeman responds “Sure there are, but of Fidels who are thiefs and SOBs there is only one!”
Neither have I.
I wonder if Ernesto Guevara, universally known as Che, or El Che (the dude) qualifies for this thread?
I think he would, he was in the Cuban government, as president of the Banco Nacional, and as minister of Industry.
And don’t forget that spokesman, the one they dubbed Comical Ali for his seemingly other-world updates.
If your direct subordinates bestow upon you the title Boss, that doesn’t make it less self-bestowed.
Viz Fernando “el Deseado”, who was called “the desired/awaited” before he became king… the title wasn’t bestowed by his direct subordinates.
Aren’t they the same guy?
Comical Ali (also known as Bagdhad Bob