Who's More Wrong Here?

[Sat_on_Cookie]

I ordered my regular breakfast yesterday and the check-out girl rang it up wrong, to my benefit. I could have walked with the lousy 57 cents, but that would have made her drawer wrong. I brought it to her attention because my intent was to pay for my fucking breakfast…not rip off the cafeteria.

The difference is that the time elapsed for the Jeffgate confrontation is two days, not two seconds, and the time it took the guy to come back initially was about three hours (I think).

If the customer had handed the check to Jeff and then realized his mistake before leaving (let’s say within minutes), then I wouldn’t support Jeff if he adopted a “na-na finder’s keepers losers weepers” attitude.

At the point that he is going to made aware of the customer’s error, he may have already spent money that he obtained in good faith.

[Left_Hand_of_Dorkness]

The other problem with the misrung breakfast analogy is that the breakfast has an agreed-upon cost. When you ordered the breakfast, you agreed to pay that cost. If she gives you back the wrong change, you’ve not met your end of the transaction, simple as that.

If the cashier says, “I own this place, and I think you’re cute, and I’m going to give you a discount,” and then undercharges you, then you’ve got a similar deal: in this situation, when she hands you too much change and says, “there’s your discount,” then you’ve received a verbal agreement that she’s giving you a discretionary amount of money. If, next time you’re in the restaurant, she says, “Oops! I meant to give you a quarter back, not $0.57,” then you may or may not give her some money back: you’re certainly not obligated to do so.

If, Cheesesteak and others, the guy has an ethical right to receive his money back, what are the parameters for this right? Suppose I give a $10 tip on a meal, then go out to my car and find out that there’s a $5 ticket on my car – can I go back inside and demand $5 back?

Suppose I tip 15% on a meal, but later find out that my best friend got dumped by the waiter. Can I go back and demand my money back?

When I go back, what if I claim it was a mistake my tipping 15%, and tell the waiter I’d only intended to tip 5%. Is the waiter under an obligation to return two-thirds of the tip?

How exactly does this principle work? To what degree does the tip remain the provisional property of the tipper? when does this provision expire? How does the waiter determine whether the tipper has a legitimate reason for demanding the tip back, and is not simply making up excuses?

A transfer of property is a transfer of property. Sometimes, such as with the selling of a house, it’s complicated. Fortunately, this is a simple, cut-and-dried transfer.

Daniel

[CnoteChris]

Well, I can see we’re going to go at this round and round. And, quite frankly, I don’t feel like sitting around here all day going back and forth on points all the while waiting for this fucking server to accept a post.

Enough. We choose to disagree.

You guys seem interested in the legality of the issue when in my opinion, much like Kalhoun’s, the issue isn’t legal, it’s moral.

Morally, in my book, the waiter doesn’t have a leg to stand on. He’s profiting off of someone’s mistake and not putting any consideration into the customers intention. The intention being, obviously, that he didn’t want to leave more than two bucks extra for a tip.

Any way it’s spun and twisted, it still gets back to intentions and what is right and wrong. I think the gentlemanly way to go about it, regardless of the added chaff and nonsense and legalese, is to abide by what was meant, not exactly what took place… if that makes any sense.

There has to be some wiggle room in this stuff, otherwise everyone and their brother will turn into complete jackasses to deal with.

IMHO

[Gangster_Octopus]

But Daniel, the key difference is that the customer never had an intention of giving the second twenty, it was place in the envelope by accident. In many ways it is no different than if he had pulled one twenty out of his wallet and a second dropped on the table that he didn’t notice. I mean your examples can be extended: What if he said, “Keep the change” and then quickly realized he gave too much? I think it is very weak for the customer to make a big deal out of it and if it was me I wouldn’t go back for the money, but I still think ultimately, if he wants it back he should get it back.

[Left_Hand_of_Dorkness]

CnoteChris, you say that I’m interested in the “legality of the issue.” The problem may therefore be that you’re not reading what I’m saying: I’ve said over and over that I’m discussing the ethics of the situation.

And Gangster, it IS different from if he’d dropped a second twenty on the table. Let’s quit coming up with fallacious analogies, shall we? The fact is that he handed money to the waiter and said “keep the change.” He transferred property. The waiter is under no ethical, moral, or legal obligation to transfer any property back to the guy.

Daniel

[Medea_s_Child]

Not all moral systems are based on intent. Several very good systems are action based. A few others are consequence based.

From my moral view, which is action based, The tipper’s actions make him an asshole. He gave Jeff money, told him to keep it, and is now demanding it back. He lied (about letting Jeff keep the change) and now he’s trying to coerce someone else into covering it up for him. (by berating Jeff into giving the money back)That kind of behavior is immoral.

Jeff’s actions have been in good faith. He picked up his tip, he was happy, he may or may not have spent it, which can’t be seen as wrong because it was money given to him. When he is asked for it back, its up to him to decide if he wants to give our crabby traveler a gift. He’s under no moral obligation to do so. It comes down to Jeff’s opinion of charity toward people who are abusing him.

And yes, the manager screwed up.

[Left_Hand_of_Dorkness]

Exactly, Medea’s Child.
Daniel

[alice_in_wonderland]

I may as well chime in here too…

My dad is as bad at math as I am at spelling. He has, on more than one occasion, given people 200% tips.

He would never dream of asking for the difference back - he chalks it up as a reminder to have myself or my mom double check his addition before handing over the slip or the cash. .

When waiters have given me too much change back I always make sure to point it out. Ditto for cashiers.

Asking for the $20 back is cheap and lame. Waiting is a hard enough job without this guy making it moreso.

[Cheesesteak]

*Originally posted by DanielWithrow *
**1) The cleaners legitimately believe the owners may have been offering them the air-conditioner; and
2) They don’t get an opportunity to check with the owners on whether it’s being offered; and
3) They take it in good faith, then
4) The house owners have learned a valuable lesson. **

This is where the value of the mistake comes into play. If this were a functioning, but used, window air conditioner, I could see them taking it in good faith. In this case, it was a brand new, in the box, central-air conditioner unit, worth hundreds of dollars. Did they legitimately believe it was left for them? I don’t think so.

Ethics are not black and white, in our waiter’s case, we can see that it is a clear error, not just taking back money freely given.

[Otto]

I once tipped a stripper $10 when I meant to tip $1 and I thought for a second about asking for it back. My reasoning went like this: “I’m drunk. I want to be more drunk. He has my drinking money in his strap.” But I didn’t ask for it back, because asking for a tip back after it’s given is crass.

That stripper is now extra nice to me every time I see him and I always get a little something “value added” from him. So stupidity sometimes brings its rewards.

Now, if I were Jeff, my first line of defense would be to find someone to swap shifts with me so that I wasn’t even in the restaurant at the time the guy came in. The next thing I would try, should this dickweed actually dare to show his face, is to let him know that I’m extremely busy and please have a seat at the bar and I’ll be over when I have the chance. Then disappear into the kitchen for extended periods of time. If the cheap bastard still persisted, at closing time/end of shift, I would do all my closing work and then and only then would I hand him back his $20. But I would do it out of that nights tips so he gets it all in singles and as many coins as I can lay hands on. In handing it back to the tightwad I waould say sorrowfully, “I’m sorry you had to come back for this. I guess you need it more than I do…”

[CnoteChris]

*Originally posted by Medea’s Child *
He gave Jeff money, told him to keep it, and is now demanding it back. He lied (about letting Jeff keep the change)…

Oh come on. He didn’t lie if what he assumed was in the booklet, was. He assumed he was giving a twenty, not forty. Saying that he’s a liar now because he said ‘keep the change’ is not only reaching, it’s stupid. You’re dismissing outright any intention this guy had.

[kung_fu_lola]

*Originally posted by CnoteChris *
**I think the gentlemanly way to go about it, regardless of the added chaff and nonsense and legalese, is to abide by what was meant, not exactly what took place… if that makes any sense. **

No, it doesn’t.

No one can prove what was meant. One can claim to have intended something different after the fact, and people will lie about stuff like that if they think it will affect the outcome in their favour. But what actually happened, as Medea’s Child pointed out, speaks for itself.

One thing that bothers me about the OP is that employees have to pay out of their own pocket for mistakes made on the till. That is bad management.

One busy night at Subway I was scammed by some asshole who pulled the old; “pay for a bag of chips with a twenty and claim I only got change for a ten”. I knew when it was happening that he was scamming me, but I had a big lineup of people and he was yelling and making a scene, so I gave him the extra ten. I knew my drawer wouldn’t balance. I told my manager what happened and he just said; “Oh well, there are some jerks out there. Next time just ignore him and call the police if he won’t leave.” Did I have to pay ten bucks out of my pocket? No.
When I worked at Tim Horton’s, sometimes in Drive-Thru I would round up people’s change to keep our window time low. Did I have to use my own money to balance my till at the end of my shift? No.

I know this sounds like a hijack, but what I’m saying is, Jeff won’t get any help from management because it’s pretty obvious that they have an adversarial attitude. Of course they’re going to sicc the customer on Jeff. They don’t care what happens. If they knew how to manage properly, they would have intervened. That’s what they’re for, to handle situations like this graciously.

And as for the customer’s per diem, it was spent on food, they way it was meant to be spent. If he wants it back to buy porno and smokes, it’s better off with Jeff, who doesn’t even make minimum wage.

[Left_Hand_of_Dorkness]

*Originally posted by Cheesesteak *
**This is where the value of the mistake comes into play. If this were a functioning, but used, window air conditioner, I could see them taking it in good faith. In this case, it was a brand new, in the box, central-air conditioner unit, worth hundreds of dollars. Did they legitimately believe it was left for them? I don’t think so.

Ethics are not black and white, in our waiter’s case, we can see that it is a clear error, not just taking back money freely given. **

I don’t know what your last sentence means. The key point here is that the waiter DID legitimately think the tip was intended for him – reread the OP. As I’ve said repeatedly, the waiter should have double-checked with the customer had he gotten the opportunity. He didn’t, however, get the opportunity – quite possibly because the customer was trying to stiff the waiter (irrevelant except that it adds a nice bit of schadenfreude to the story). Therefore the waiter DID accept the tip in good faith. It’s now his, just as surely as is every other tip the waiter received that night; the customer has no more moral right to that money now than he has to the waiter’s car, the waiter’s shirt, or the waiter’s sixpack of beer.

The customer in this case is a selfish git, who’s made two ethical errors: first, he stiffed a waiter; and second, he demanded property that isn’t his. Were I the waiter, I’d give the money back only if the manager insisted on it, and I Wouldn’t Be Pleased.

Daniel

[Liberal]

CNote

You guys seem interested in the legality of the issue when in my opinion, much like Kalhoun’s, the issue isn’t legal, it’s moral.

I don’t even understand the American legal system, so trust me that my opinion is not based on it.

My opinion is based on a simple ethic: personal responsibility for decisions and actions. The customer made his decision to be in a hurry and he acted carelessly — he should pin the responsibility on no one but himself.

[Noone_Special]

Actually, I think two issues are being confused here:

• Customer’s right to expect to get his $20 mistake back AND
• Jeff’s right to expect to keep $20 “gravy” tip.

Who’s supposed to make ends meet here? All together boys and girls - management. Who blew it big time.

I also think that the customer’s adversarial attitude (as opposed to coming in and ansking nicely) definitely detracts from his right to expect the $20 back.

So it’s back to - Management blew it big-time; customer blew it small-time; Jeff probably should no longer even be involved in the situation (since audrey says that some form of “wait and see” or “escrow” would not have worked here)

[Killuminati]

I think that old Jeff should give the money back to the guy. One time I was at a Cucos and was real fucked up on beer and xanax. I left the waiter a penny tip. I thought it was funny at the time. Actually I could not stop laughing as we were leaving the restaurant. But now I imagine that he probably got pissed. And the next time me and my bro went there that same guy was our waiter.

[Left_Hand_of_Dorkness]

Excellent point, Killuminati. My apologies to everyone else who made the same point, only not as eloquently; not only am I completely persuaded now that old Jeff should give the money back, but I am intrigued by your ideas and would like to subscribe &c.

Daniel

[Cheesesteak]

*Originally posted by DanielWithrow *
I don’t know what your last sentence means.

What I mean is that this is clearly an error. It isn’t the case of the disgruntled person taking back the $22 tip he gave to the waiter. It’s the case of the person finding out the $2 tip he intended to give was actually $22 due to bills sticking together. I’d also like to point out that the timing issue could just be the length of time it took him to run out of money in his wallet, discovering the error. I wouldn’t bother to count the money in my wallet while leaving the restaurant, so I wouldn’t discover the error right away.

The key point here is that the waiter DID legitimately think the tip was intended for him – reread the OP.

The OP also said the waiter is kind of dopey, someone with a good head on his shoulders may not have thought it was a $22 tip. He might have noticed that the 2 bills were stuck together and deduced that this was an error.

Therefore the waiter DID accept the tip in good faith. It’s now his, just as surely as is every other tip the waiter received that night; the customer has no more moral right to that money now than he has to the waiter’s car, the waiter’s shirt, or the waiter’s sixpack of beer.

If the customer left the tip on the table, and accidently dropped a $20 out of his pocket, would you feel the same? Just because the waiter thought it was real, doesn’t mean it’s any less of a mistake.

The customer in this case is a selfish git, who’s made two ethical errors: first, he stiffed a waiter; and second, he demanded property that isn’t his. Were I the waiter, I’d give the money back only if the manager insisted on it, and I Wouldn’t Be Pleased.**

The customer may very well be a git, and he didn’t seem inclined to tip well to begin with. However, that doesn’t absolve Jeff, he should still offer to give the money back.

[Zoe]

Jeff has a chance to give himself something a lot more valuable than $20.

Agreed, the money is rightfully his and the customer was rude in asking for it back.

But what feelings of self-respect would Jeff have if he gave the money back? What if he went out of his way to deliver it to the gentleman at the hotel and gave it back graciously and with pleasure at being able to do something noble?

If he does this just one time, it will make him feel good about himself for a while. And a lifetime of practicing such personal integrity is valuable beyond measure.

And I don’t mean that it is priceless is some vague kharmic sense. This matter of personal honor is the sort of thing that allows a person to live comfortably within her or his own skin.

[Kalhoun]

Leg-O-Lamb said, “Should he choose to give the money back, he should be applauded for his honesty.”

I never think anyone should be applauded for honesty. It’s expected in my world.