Who's really responsible for the "thin is perfect" female ideal? Hint -It's not men

In My Humble Opinion
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[QUOTE=astro]
Immature high school and young college male attitudes aside, I’m talking about about women who are 20-50 lbs over some ideal standard (say ideal BMI) complaining that adult heterosexual men don’t find them sexy. This is demonstrably false, but the notion is clung to as evidence of some sort of oppressive standard perpetrated by men.
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Thing is, it is not demonstrably false. Perhaps it isn’t true for you. Good for you.

But, I’ve heard female celebrities who are by no means 20 pounds overweight - they’re just not 20 pounds underweight (Lucy Lawless, Beyonce Knowles, Kate Winslet being recent examples) being referred to as “too fat.” By men above the young college male age. I’ve heard guys point out women who were at and slightly under ideal weight as “too fat.” I’d say media is defining what ideal should be for both men and women, but the pressure from men is huge.

Comparitively, there isn’t much pressure from women at all. (In my experience, of course, YMMV)

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[QUOTE=astro]
Seriously - Where does this ideal come from? Who is perpetuating it, because it sure as hell is not coming from heterosexual men.
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No, but it IS coming from men. Men who have a lot of power over how women are supposed to look. Fill in the blanks…

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I’ve got no cite or anything, but I think the OP is completely wrong. To use amarinth’s example, Kate Winslet sometimes gets praised for bravely… being what seems to be the right weight for her height. (I doubt she’s overweight.) Some women may be going too far in the thinness race, but they’ve been lead to believe that’s what men want. The ideal is well-established and women are helping it stay alive, but they didn’t come up with it.

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“All the men I’ve ever spoken to say they like girls to have an arse on them.” --Kate Winslet

I’ll drink to that.

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[QUOTE=astro]
Same here
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Wait, that blonde in the middle is overweight? Plus, I find it hard to believe really on any of them.

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As of Febuary 2000, Kate Winslet weighed 130 pounds. She is 5’8". By comparison, Kate Moss is 5’7" and weighed 115.

so…one inch of height and 15 pounds between…OH MY GOD, she is stick thin and must never eat! to What a fat cow! (paraphrasing both of course)

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astro, you are wrong. I’ve been told by a man I was dating that I needed to watch what I eat to avoid becoming fat. At the time I had a BMI of about 16.8 which is underweight. Now my BMI is about 18 and I had a few males call me fat recently, but I just laughed it off.

Most of the negative comments I’ve gotten came from females who were critizing thin girls in general. They would say stuff like “No one should be a size 0!” or call me or other women with my body type anorexic. I hate the Real Woman Have Curves campaign. Real women come in all different body shapes and sizes.

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[QUOTE=Marley23]
I’ve got no cite or anything, but I think the OP is completely wrong. To use amarinth’s example, Kate Winslet sometimes gets praised for bravely… being what seems to be the right weight for her height. (I doubt she’s overweight.) Some women may be going too far in the thinness race, but they’ve been lead to believe that’s what men want. The ideal is well-established and women are helping it stay alive, but they didn’t come up with it.
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I recall hearing that James Cameron had bitched at Winslet to lose twenty pounds for the filming of Titanic. Supposedly, he made some snide remarks to her on set about it.

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[QUOTE=Antinor01]
As of Febuary 2000, Kate Winslet weighed 130 pounds. She is 5’8". By comparison, Kate Moss is 5’7" and weighed 115.

so…one inch of height and 15 pounds between…OH MY GOD, she is stick thin and must never eat! to What a fat cow! (paraphrasing both of course)
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According to this fantastic BMI calculator, at 5’8" and 130lbs Winslet has a BMI of 19.8. Also, she is at the 8th percentile for BMI. Only 7% of women have a lower BMI.

This is “huge” according to Hollywood. :mad:

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Whoops. Forgot to mentioned that Kate Moss at 5’7" and 115lbs is at BMI 18.0 and in the <2nd percentile.

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[QUOTE=Carlyjay]
I am assuming the OP meant “uber-thin”, like the anorexic actresses trotting about Hollywood these days. (Think Nicole Richie, Kate Bosworth, Lara Flynn Boyle).

If that’s the case, then sure, I can see that most men do not find that sexy. Which is why actresses like Scarlett Johansson and Selma Hayek are considered very sexy: they are not bone-thin, they have curves.

However, those actresses are still pretty thin. And I haven’t heard many men proclaim that Angelina Jolie might be sexy if only she put on 20 or 30 pounds.
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Bear in mind that 99% of all people have seen Angelina Jolie, Scarlett Johansson et al. only on film, which has the effect of making a person look much heavier than they are in real life.

A few years back my buddy Scott and I, while walking in downtown San Francisco to a ball game, accidentally stumbled onto the set of the ill-fated TV show “girls club.” (As it turned out the horrible set security was indicative of the show’s quality; it lasted two episodes.) I practically tripped over Chyler Leigh’s folding chair and got a nasty look from Gretchen Mol.

Anyway, if you ever saw a preview for the show, it was about three impossibly young and beautiful female lawyers, played by Leigh, one-time “It Girl” Mol, and Kathleen Robertson. I remember seeing the previews for the show and thinking, “Wow, what a bunch of hot chicks.” In person, though, I was absolutely stunned by two things:

  1. They were skinny to the point of being less attractive than they could have been.
  2. They were short.

In person, they were not nearly as good looking.

On the other hand, I once saw Kate Winslet at LAX. And I’ll say two things about her:

  1. 130 pounds is a low guess; I’ve known women her height and I’d guess 140-150. Maybe she’s been 130 at some point but she sure wasn’t when I saw her.
  2. She was astonishingly beautiful. Men were literally gaping at her.

What is attractive on film is not what is attractive in real life. Real life attractive is heavier than film attractive. I’m not sure why that is, but it’s unquestionably true.

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[QUOTE=Lissa]
I recall hearing that James Cameron had bitched at Winslet to lose twenty pounds for the filming of Titanic. Supposedly, he made some snide remarks to her on set about it.
[/QUOTE]

I’ve also heard that James Cameron is a jackass. Kate Winslet’s body is lovely just the way it is, says I. Personally, my taste varies widely but there’s still no way in hell I’d call her fat.

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[QUOTE=RickJay]
Bear in mind that 99% of all people have seen Angelina Jolie, Scarlett Johansson et al. only on film, which has the effect of making a person look much heavier than they are in real life.
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#1. As I said, Scarlett Johansson is actually really thin. She doesn’t starve herself like many Hollywood starlets, but she’s thin compared to most women. The only reason she’s touted about Hollywood for being “plus size” is because she isn’t the bony mess that most female stars are. In the real world, she’s pretty tiny.

#2. Angelina Jolie is frighteningly thin. When I said I’ve never heard men wistfully wishing she were 30lbs heavier, I was saying so because she is really, horrifyingly, skeletal-thin. Even while pregnant, her arms and wrists were emaciated. Yet men see her as the ultimate in beauty.

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Ironically, these are the guys under the greatest risk of getting drunk and hooking up with a fat chick. :smiley:

But yeah. Guys at that age pretty much think the Maxim magazine figure is the normal. But people also happen to be a lot skinnier when they are younger to.

I don’t know that you can blame anyone. Brooke Burke and Carmen Electra do look hot on the cover of FHM and Maxim. No one “tells” me that’s what hot is. I just like it. Is it an obtainable ideal for most gals? Probably not which is why they are on the cover. Normal women also don’t have the advantage of having nothing to do but work out all day or having a lighting and makeup crew follow them around while someone else Photoshops away any flaws.
The difference is how women react to these expectations. Men generally don’t get worked up when we don’t fit into the Brad Pitt or Tom Cruise (before he went crazy) mold. “Man that Brad Pitt was ripped in Troy…I wish I could have arms like that…screw it, I’m going drinkin!”

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[QUOTE=Carlyjay]
#1. As I said, Scarlett Johansson is actually really thin. She doesn’t starve herself like many Hollywood starlets, but she’s thin compared to most women. The only reason she’s touted about Hollywood for being “plus size” is because she isn’t the bony mess that most female stars are. In the real world, she’s pretty tiny.

#2. Angelina Jolie is frighteningly thin. When I said I’ve never heard men wistfully wishing she were 30lbs heavier, I was saying so because she is really, horrifyingly, skeletal-thin. Even while pregnant, her arms and wrists were emaciated. Yet men see her as the ultimate in beauty.
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Both of your examples and woman that look good and sexy, neither is approaching ultimate beauty. I find older actresses like Audrey Hepburn and Ava Gardner and Liz Taylor to be near the peek of Beauty. Ava & Liz were both Curvy and Beautiful, Audrey was graceful and lovely but very thin even by todays thin standards. She just carried it perfectly somehow.
Of today actresses Kate Beckinsale & Jennifer Connolly strike me as the most eye catching and beautiful. Kate appears to be very thin but something about her complete look and the beauty of her face, really gets to me. I do not think Jennifer would be accused of being too thin, but maybe I am wrong.

Oh someone mention the other day that Rachel Ray looked chubby to them. I was very confused at first and then realized they must think girls like Paris Hilton are sexy and not repulsive. I think Rachel Ray is cute with a sexy body.

Jim {Apparently I greatly prefer Brunettes.}

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[QUOTE=Carlyjay]

#2. Angelina Jolie is frighteningly thin. When I said I’ve never heard men wistfully wishing she were 30lbs heavier, I was saying so because she is really, horrifyingly, skeletal-thin. Even while pregnant, her arms and wrists were emaciated. Yet men see her as the ultimate in beauty.
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That’s my point. To most men, she IS thirty pounds heavier.

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[QUOTE=Antinor01]
As of Febuary 2000, Kate Winslet weighed 130 pounds. She is 5’8". By comparison, Kate Moss is 5’7" and weighed 115.

so…one inch of height and 15 pounds between…OH MY GOD, she is stick thin and must never eat! to What a fat cow! (paraphrasing both of course)
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Weight Watchers’ recommended weight for a woman 5’8" over the age of 25 is between 131-158.

Kate Moss, according to WW, should weigh between 127-153.

I am 25 pounds over my ideal weight. To the world, this makes me a fat cow. If I were not married, I would likely have a hard time getting a date.

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Sorry, my cite.

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[QUOTE=GingerOfTheNorth]
If I were not married, I would likely have a hard time getting a date.
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Well this is simply not true. If I were a guy, I would totally fuck you. :smiley: (And take you out for dinner and drinks first…)

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As a skinny girl (100-105 lbs at 5 feet 4 inches), I’m not too pleased about being called “a bag of antlers” or being told that real women have curves. It may be easier to be skinny than chubby, but it’s not great either. Clothes that look great on girls with cleavage and hips hang on me like a sack.