That’s totally true! They only won the presidency (taken away from an incumbent), kept the Senate, despite all the naysayers, and nearly kept the House, in what was supposed to be a red wave.
No one likes being criticized.
Many who criticize those advocating for third-party Presidential votes, or in 2024, for failing to vote for Biden, are frustrated by the third-party fan/no-Biden-vote people’s failure to understand that voting is about outcomes, NOT about self-expression.
For example:
The reason that people who see things this way get pushback is that they are prioritizing their own feelings over, well, reality. If your feelings are hurt because you don’t feel ‘listened to’ and as a consequence you decide to ‘send a message’ or ‘teach them a lesson’ by failing to vote for the only option that will stop an openly-nativist and fascist dictator, then you are operating on delusional premises.
People who criticize you do so because they know that it’s the outcome that matters–not your feelings. They know that a vote is a tool you use to get as close to possible to the outcome you want. It’s not about ‘your conscience’ and it’s not the emblem of your soul. The election is not about your self-expression. It’s about the OUTCOME.
The election is not about anybody owing any candidate anything. It’s about which candidate will deliver results that are as close as possible to what you want. Not results that are exactly what you want—adults know that the world doesn’t work that way. The way the world works is that you vote so as to get as close as possible to what you want.
If a candidate “listens” to you then doesn’t do exactly as you instruct, then you, as an adult, have to accept that you can’t always expect to get exactly what you want. You vote so as to get as close as possible to what you want, bearing in mind the alternative—and in the US system, the Presidential election offers only two choices. (Grown-ups know that if they want that situation to change they have to start supporting their preferred third-party candidates at the local level, and then work up.)
Talk about “protest votes” and “voting your conscience” and “you don’t owe anyone your vote” all springs from propaganda that in every case is promulgated for the benefit of pro-authoritarian factions and individuals. It’s designed to flatter the listener into believing that their failure to vote for the less-authoritarian alternative (of the TWO options in a US Presidential election) is Noble and Pure and Admirable. What’s being sold is a fiction–a fiction that always helps out the more-authoritarian candidate.
When others criticize those who fall for this propaganda, that criticism hurts the feelings of those who’ve embraced it.
But the criticism stems from a firm belief that reality (that voting is about outcomes) is better than fiction (that voting is about self-expression or protesting or aligning with a third-party or displaying the purity of your feelings).
It may be hard to take. But it’s not going to stop, because the stakes are so very, very high.
This goes back to at least 2000, probably earlier. Made worse these days by greater polarization, at least in media and on the Internet, combined with the cesspool that is the Internet. Frankly, considering where I live (my vote for President doesn’t matter) and how much I do not like much of the left because of what people say and do, the national Democratic party is very mildly lucky I’m not ready to start only voting things like state and local offices, ballot initiatives and bond issues. Things that regularly affect my life at a local level.
What the hell does this even mean? Biden won in 2020. That would mean he was on the winning side. Unless he really did steal the election from Trump. Which makes your point even worse. Then Biden really was on the winning side, not the right side.
Nope. I was trying to explain why pro-third-party/no-Biden-vote folks are going to continue to get pushback over their advocacy.
It’s because those pushing back know that voting is about outcomes–not about making “a political statement.”
I’ll remember that next time I have to cast the deciding electoral vote because that’s the only way your analogy holds water.
So you think that in the United States it is wrong to vote your conscious because my one vote may swing the difference as to whether or not Biden takes Colorado?
This argument is so holier-than-thou it is ridiculous and IMO anti-American. I shouldn’t vote the way I want because you and others here feel they should tell me who I should vote for - one of these two? I’ll tell you what. IF Biden does lose Colorado by one vote and thus Trump becomes President, then that’s on Biden for not making me want to vote for him, it’s not on me.
I think everyone should vote for who they want. I don’t know why you feel you need to make up excuses. If you want to vote for Trump vote for for Trump, if you want to vote for RFK Jr go ahead, no one can really stop you.
I had a longer post written but I’ll just leave it politely at this instead: If you like your side winning only certain elections against a fascist candidate and side, by small margins, and think it’s acceptable - then you do you.
If you’re comfortable with Democrats not having a House majority when they ought to have 260 seats - okay. If you think 2016 going Trump’s way is okay - all right. If you think Trump nipping on Biden’s heels in the polls and standing a serious chance of winning in November is acceptable - sure.
I think you’re underestimating the impact of pro-America propaganda in American education.
I grew up learning that America was the Best Country in the World, because we have Democracy. We all get a vote! We are all, like those founding fathers, an integral part of America! Over and over and over, we learned about a very small but significant part of 18th-century Massachusetts history.
My feelings were absolutely manipulated, and effectively. To this day, I still believe in the American ideals I was taught about, even though I now have a much better context for them. I still feel that my individual vote (and the opinions behind it) should matter, but as that is patently ridiculous I now work around this feeling. But while I agree with what you said in your post, I don’t think it’s rational to expect the majority of Americans to see this and practice what you are preaching, particularly with bad actors (Russia, Iran, China, who knows) actively and professionally working to influence voters.
Most American adults simply do not have the information, perspective, and experience to vote rationally. I’m not saying they are 100% irrational, but that their vote comes partly from intellect and partly from emotion, and the balance is different in everyone. It only takes a little strong emotion to sway a mostly rational low-information centrist to the other side.
Now I know I’m just one of the sheeple around here, but it sounds like we have some real smart people in this thread. I’m sure between our learned professors (@Velocity , @Saint_Cad and @SyncoSmalls) they can come up with the the five most obvious things that Biden and Democrats should do to ensure a landslide victory this fall.
I am dumb, so I’m going to have to stupidly rule out the Idea that Biden should just adopt the Republican platform so let’s not use that one
#1 through 5 is do better at getting his message across. Example, he pulled us out of Afghanistan when no president in the last 20 years had the balls to do. Message the voters remember: a bunch of soldiers got killed defending an airport that we were turning over to the Taliban. He promised to continue the fight on student loans. Not saying he isn’t doing it but if he is I’m not hearing about it.
There are some of us that don’t look at everything Biden’s people say through blue-colored glasses. And if the replies in this thread is how ignorant I am as to what Biden is doing, it’s more of fingers in Dem ears saying la-la-la I don’t hear you like they’ve been doing since 2016.
But, once again, you are not using your ballot to make a political statement. The is NO place on your ballot to make such a statement. Your ballot has one purpose and it can only be used for that one purpose-To Vote.
Unless of course by “protest” you mean thinking to yourself over and over again "That’ll show them! as you drop off the ballot.
I’m absolutely shocked that the contingent that is all about the right to vote (e.g. voter ID laws, intimidation) is so focused on limiting the right to vote through intimidation: you need to vote for one of these two people or you’re a failure at voting. And yet they don’t see the hypocrisy.
Clarification: Right to vote for whomever I want on the ballot.
It didn’t sound like messaging is the real issue for you though. You seem to know what he did, but it still isn’t enough to get your vote. And you are much smarter than most of the voters.
I want you to vote for whoever you want. I want everyone to vote for who they want.
Are you shocked by the actual Republican campaigns to drive people away from voting by actually making it harder to vote for people that aren’t like them ethnically and/or ethically and/or politically?
Because I stay informed unlike most Americans on both sides of the aisle. And between him and Trump I’d rather see Kamala but as much as I hate Biden I don’t believe an insurrectionist should be President even if I were MAGA for life. If that makes me prefer Biden for President then take it as you will. And hope he keels over from a heart attack Jan 20th at 12:01
Ok. Then it seems I was right that “messaging” has nothing to do with how you would vote. You won’t vote for Biden because you don’t like him ( and that’s your God given American right).
Maybe everyone else is just too dumb to also vote for who they want to, but I think maybe they also wouldn’t care about any “messaging” changes from Biden either because they don’t like him either. No “messaging” will change that.
I don’t like watching TV, so it took me a while to get to this.
On the one hand, you are correct. It sounds like Biden is directly contradicting what swing voters think, rather than accepting it and saying the future will be better.
On the other hand, the Biden campaign undoubtedly runs focus groups with swing/uncertain voters, trialing different messages to see what works. If they found a message that works, Biden would be pounding it. So, most likely, no message really appeals to swing voters. This leaves Biden free to make statements that only appeal to people who already like him. If the turnout election outcome theory is correct (which I doubt, but is possible), this will help Joe’s ticket.
Maybe I shouldn’t even be posting in this thread, because I do not much believe in blaming, perhaps due to disbelieving in free will. For the first time, tonight I went back and forth with 2020 and 2024 interview videos. The most obvious Biden difference is ago. Trump may be less articulate than before, but he was never elected for his polish, and he does not sound older to me.
It’s unfortunate that Biden is running, but giving up great power goes so much against human nature that I can hardly blame him.
If you don’t want to vote Trump or 3rd Party then you have already decided to vote Biden and (almost) nothing could sway you. You’re right that to continue with that message is a losing strategy.