Speed up the apocalypse? :dubious: Maybe God will just let us wander in the fallout until the predetermined time anyway.
It is now from Beagle’s post 04-18-2003 03:47 AM.
Road Rash has not come back so far after appearing a second time on 4-16-2003 at 4:03 AM.
I said in my post of 4-16-2003 6:34 AM that he was not really asking a why question, but actually telling Christians concerned with the end times that they are being naive owing to their religious beliefs.
Road Rash, if you are still in touch with this thread, please tell me if I have been completely off tangent in reading this thought in your first and also even in your second message?
Jackie Lee, are you having a wicked glee, owing to the end times arguments of Christians?
If so, I am glad that you and I have the same wavelength.
The way I see it, Pre-Tribbers are Christians who maintain that before Jesus comes again, they will be taken into heaven first, so spared from the mayhem that will come with Jesus.
There are Christians who maintain otherwise, these are the Post-Tribbers and others of various diversities.
Please correct me for any errors in my knowledge of the beliefs of Fundamentalist Christians about their lots on the second coming of Jesus.
My point is that their arguments are purely and exclusively relevant to themselves insofar as they situate themselves in their beliefs world.
Namely, if they don’t believe in Jesus and His second coming and the mayhem that would take place, then there is no argumentation whatever one way or the other.
And 99% of mankind who do not share their beliefs are not occupied in any way with their concerns and advocacies.
Now, however, that 99% of mankind have got to put a lid on the practical deductions of these Christians putting into actual consequences into their behavior from their beliefs.
So Fundamentalist Christians who are into Pre-Tribulation or Post-Tribulation would want to bring about more wars, famines, heresies, immoralities, etc., so that Jesus’ arrival will occur sooner than later; in order that they will get to heaven earlier and the reign of Jesus will come about sooner.
In that sense, the world of beliefs would bring about a world of facts; namely, Christians believing and hoping for the end times will do their contributions in order to bring about the facts of wars, pestilences, famines, immoralities, heresies, in brief general mayhem.
Like those Japanese cult guys who wanted to gas mankind to the end of the world for mankind, with sarin in subway stations…
Correct me if I am wrong, though.
Don’t let religionists impose their beliefs world into the facts world.
Jackie Lee, are you still around, you must be having an extra dose of wicked glee.
Susma Rio Sep
Actually, one of the things I was getting at in my post was that the only Fundementalist Christians I’ve met that thought this would work were morons. It would be a highly innaccurate doctrine, and not one based on any real view of Christianity. So, in essence, it’s not really beliefs vs facts, but poorly understood beliefs vs facts.
I don’t think anyone could support the idea that they can jury rig the universe to go off at a moment of their choosing, unless they had a very poor understanding of the nature of God.
While the OP points the idea to FC’s I think it would fall more into the realm of the Branch Davidians, and similar fringe groups. IMHO, once you step over the line of following God, into the area of conjuring or controlling God, your Christianity becomes highly suspect.
Okay - Bush does not believe that he can bring about the Apocalypse by waging war as you claimed.
Regards,
Shodan
I find no Joy in this.
Just look around and watch and listen to some of the Christians these days.
I believe we are to live pure clean lives.
It is not being done.
Straight dope time coincides with no known time zone. I can assure you that I did not make my last post on Wednesday morning at 4:03 a.m. I have a real day job that makes it in my best interest to be fast asleep at that time.
I can honestly say that I do not have any anti-Israel or anti-Jewish bias. I find it ironic that when one criticizes the actions of Israel, a few will step in and assume anti-semitism. Unless, of course, the critic happens to be Jewish (which I am not). I respect that Israel is the closest thing to a popularly elected representative government in the Middle East. I certainly do not blame them for taking the action they are currently taking, although I feel their past actions have largely developed their current situation. They have in the past, and likely still do, treat the native Palenstinians as second class citizens. Many Palestinian people are citizens of Israel. They have kept an essentially aparthied-like system where Palestinians are not allowed to live in certain neighborhoods, even if their families have owned property there for generations. They also send Jewish families into the occupied territories to live a comfortable, subsidized existence on what is essentially land seized by emminent domain by the government while their Palestinian neighbors live in squalor.
On the national news, some time ago, I saw a piece about how evangelical churches are donating money so that Jews can settle in the homeland. Their logic, according to the news source, and those who distributed the wealth (I remember Hal Lindsay in there as well), saying that they were preparing the holy land for the tribulation. They were not directly encouraging terrorism or war. They are encouraging, possibly forcing the displacement of native residents by donating toward this cause. A displacement of people based on religion. Similar, in some ways, to what the U.S. did to its native populations. They are justifying this through their interpretation of some ancient prophesies. This doesn’t make it the right thing to do. No more than claiming ownership of land because of a 3000 year old covenant.
A few years ago, I was “witnessed” to from someone who at the time I considered a friend. I am not a religious person, but it does tickle me that he just assumed that I was ignorant enough of the bible to believe what he told me (I took 6 hours of religion in college). He was giving me the talk about the tribulation and looking forward to Jesus’s return, including sending people to Israel and rebuilding the temple. I could have debated him on so many levels, but I asked him, “Wouldn’t it be better to take steps to stabalize the area? Shouldn’t we try to keep that from happening? Do you want to be the generation that failed?” He looked at me as if I were weird. If these prophesies are to happen, so be it. But to subsidize these land grabs is morally wrong. Maybe not as much as terrorism, but still wrong.
I said in my last post that I was a little disorganized in my OP. For those who said that it did not sound like a debate post, you were partially correct. It was transferred from IMHO, probably due to the religious angle of the post.
Well, that’s certainly a relief! Wheeeww! If I had your insight into his thinking, I probably wouldn’t have worried about that.
Tell me, does he regard himself, as he seems to, as a Leader of Men? Any truth to the rumor that he thinks himself selected by God? And what are his current opinions as to his ability to peer into the soul of Vladimir “Vlad the Impaler” Putin? Did he ever get a chance to work his mojo on Jacques Chirac?
OK, am I the only one who thinks my post says 9:47 PM? Does it change? How have I not noticed this before? Are there powerful forces at work here?
edit your user cp and see what time zone you’re set for…I just left mine at GMT
and your post says 3:47 AM, at least from my point of view
I am a religious person myself, a postgraduate Catholic who is in sympathy really more of an ecumenical religionist.
What is a postgraduate Catholic?
A Catholic who has outgrown thinking and doing in accordance to the official teachings and governance of the Catholic Church; but who still is attached to all the beauty, learning, arts, literature, architecture, music, learning, humanity, pomp and pageantry, in her duo-millennial history.
So that he still goes for church wedding and religious burial, for Christmas and Easter, and even for Santa Claus; but and this is very important: any time and every time he finds according to his reason, sensibility, and good-will for the advancement of mankind, namely any doctrinal or disciplinary matter not unacceptable, he turns not one but two deaf ears to it.
O.K., in brief: a very liberated cultural Catholic.
Now, what is an ecumenical religionist?
A person who feels perfectly at home in any religion except when he finds in accordance to his reason and sensibility and good-will for the advancement of mankind any doctrine or observance to be barbarous.
Next question is whether a postgraduate Catholic and an ecumenical religionist is genuinely a religious person.
I believe so; because I give to God the things that are God’s.
What are these things?
Well, I recognize that God exists, or I take it for granted that He does, even though I know for a fact that there is no definitely satisfactory proof of His existence.
That’s very important to God, acceptance of His existence, every religion propounding His existence teaches that.
Then also I tell Him that He’s a great guy for all the good and beautiful and terrific interesting things He has done in the universe of matter and life and consciousness.
That also is taught, telling Him He’s a great guy, in every religion claiming to worship Him.
What has a postgraduate Catholic and ecumenical religionist got to do with Jews still fervently awaiting the coming of their Messiah, and Pre-tribbers and Post-tribbers having already the Messiah come and gone, and are now awaiting also feverishly His second coming when He’s going to wreak havoc on mankind and the world?
I would much wish that they keep to just talking and writing about their respective advocacies, and not do any act that will result in killing, destruction of homes, and extensive social and political upheavals.
And I feel more like crying than laughing when I see them doing exactly those things that lead to killing, destruction of homes, and extensive social and political upheavals.
And that is what I mean about the calamitous perils of mixing beliefs and facts, so that religious people can’t see the big difference between them; but even use their beliefs to control facts and bring about catastrophic facts.
Of course, not only Jews and Fundamentalist Christians are guilty in this regard, also Fundamentalist Muslims.
If only all of us who want to be religious would be postgraduate ones and ecumenical ones.
Susma Rio Sep
Good Lord, Susma, are you going to go into every religious thread and advertise for your notion of “Post Graduate Catholicism”? Sheesh.
Evidently they don’t believe in obeying Christ’s command to go unto all the world and preach the gospel then. Jesus is coming back because He said so. Christians, whatever endtime plan they believe in, are to “occupy til I come.” Go about our busness and continue to proclaim and preach the gospel of Christ. He will come back, regardless.
Dear Spectrum:
It is my small way of contributing to the peace and harmony in the world for all men of intelligence and good will.
Do you think I should stop?
It is really very depressing to me that religion preaches peace but it is the cause of so much of killing and destruction among peoples all in the name of religion.
You do not appreciate that grievance of mine against religion?
If Muslims and Christians and Jews and Hindus and all other religious people – each also including their respective sects whatever –
were postgraduate ones or ecumenical religionists in the sense I propound, namely,
embracing all that is beautiful and good and conducive to peace and harmony among mankind, and rejecting all that is barbarous,
then there would be no suicide bombers and strifes among Hindus and Muslims, Catholics and Protestants, Jews and Christians and Muslims, etc.
I invite you to be a postgraduate Christian or an ecumenical religionist yourself.
It is encouraging that you are taking notice of my posts on this advocacy.
God bless you.
Susma Rio Sep
The Palestinians were not given control over their own airspace under this deal, and that ought to be a fundamental right of any sovereign nation. I suppose Israel didn’t want to have to fly their planes around Palestine when they went to bomb some neighboring country. Well, too bad. I don’t blame the Palestinians for refusing a deal that recognizes anything less than total and complete soveriegnty.
Yeah, he’s skewing a little “One Trick Pony”-ish with that.
**
Yes. We get it. You think faithful members of the Catholic Church are idiots who are incapable of thinking for themselves, and if they did think for themselves, they’d promptly leave and “graduate” or somesuch horse manure.
You’ve made your meaningless, stupid point. Get off your increasingly trollish horse.
That is a meaningless generalization. “Religion” in general does no such thing. Some religions do. Some religions don’t. Some religions have in the past.
No, I really don’t.
Good Lord, learn how to format and punctuate in English.
Your needless line breaks and throughout that run-on make it basically unintelligible. Come back when you have a pre-graduate understanding of English syntax and punctuation.
I invite you to come up with a new tune, because you’ve become little more than a one hit wonder who’s singing a song that no one else wants to hear.
God save me from people like you, self-proclaimed pontiffs who go around deriding the beliefs of others as being, in essence, less-intellectually distinguished and calling on everyone to change their beliefs to conform to your silly new little religion. Awww, look at Susma, he done started his own religion. Isn’t it cute?
Whatever.
Religion is fine and dandy. What we need are for people to stop going around trying to get people to change religions. That would make the world an endlessly better place.
Spectrum says among other things:
You’ve made your meaningless, stupid point. Get off your increasingly trollish horse.
Spectrum, you are angry and use harsh unkind words.
Remember the anger of man does not work the justice of God.
As one brother to another, say your thoughts but without harsh and unkind words.
Do you see me using harsh and unkind words?
About breaking up a long paragraph into smaller clauses, remember the purpose of communication is to enable easy mental assimilation.
I heartily suggest you do simillarly; your thoughts will look more neat.
Susma Rio Sep
If, as you and the Palestinians seem to think, half a loaf is not better than nothing, and nothing less than their entire wish list will be considered, I suspect their chances of getting anything of what they want are one with Ninevah and Tyre - it ain’t gonna happen.
Especially if the Israelis get the idea that the PA is going to use their air space to attack and attempt to destroy Israel.
As I said, the deal gave them ** most** of what they said they wanted. For the Palestinians to dig in their heels and refuse a deal that gave them most because it didn’t give them all can lead to the conclusion that what they want is, in fact, the end of Israel. And they can’t have that.
I posted elsewhere that the history of the Middle East was comprised mostly of 2000 years of “he hit me back first”. I would add to that a roughly equal portion of “why should I compromise - I am right!”
So the PA turned down the deal, and stepped up the terrorism. What deal do they think that is going to get them?
Other than what they are getting now, which seems to be bupkis. I hope they’re happy, because nobody else is.
Regards,
Shodan