"Why are incels so angry?"

[Kimstu]

@monstro

And not social isolation? Are you intentionally excluding this big one?

No I’m not, but I agree with you with the face that it’s difficult to disentangle “social isolation” from “instability”.

@Chimera

Hell, 30 years ago I rode up the elevator in our company parking ramp, my employee badge clearly visible on my shirt and yet some fucking idiot woman cowered in the back of the elevator staring at me with her mace in her hand. I was young and very angry about this and if she had maced me for no reason but her fear, I’d have likely beaten her within an inch of her life

Good idea; that would no doubt have convinced her that you were not in fact a scary violent person and she had no cause to be afraid of you. :dubious:

Honestly, I get that guys find it irritating or insulting to be suspected of being potentially dangerous (and I agree that it’s idiotic for a woman to openly project suspicion and fear towards somebody she thinks might be potentially dangerous, instead of remaining alert but as calm as possible). But you know, your fundamental human goodness and decency aren’t immediately perceptible to the superficial observation of random strangers.

Maybe try cutting scared women a little more slack instead of fixating on how their fear is an insult and offense toward yourself. In any case, fantasizing about the violence you would have inflicted on a scared woman if her fear had led her to assault you in what she believed to be self-defense is probably not a good way to make women less scared to be around you.

@Robot Arm

fBut even among that category, as you say, some find a partner and some don’t. Does it just come down to luck? (Rhetorical question, mostly.)

To some extent, sure; it always has. I think what’s throwing a lot of people nowadays is that the traditional practical reasons to pair up are diminishing (most women no longer need men to support them, most men no longer need women to sew and cook for them, etc.), but social pressures to “succeed” at obtaining a partner remain strong.

So it’s just down to whether you happen to meet a person that you really “click” with, emotionally and socially. And that has always been a very chancy thing. Online dating can expose you to a lot more potential partners but, as monstro noted, doesn’t make it any easier to tell which one(s) you might really click with. As somebody noted referencing Charlie and the Chocolate Factory, dating sites show you lots more chocolate bars but don’t really help you figure out which one(s) contain a rare Golden Ticket.

[begbert2]

@Kimstu

Good idea; that would no doubt have convinced her that you were not in fact a scary violent person and she had no cause to be afraid of you. :dubious:

Yeah, that kind of scared me a little, and I’m a guy! (And also nowhere near him (as far as I know), so it wasn’t that scary. Had I heard that in person I’d be backing away.)

Of course I’m of the opinion that if somebody is scared of me then I’ve probably done something wrong and should get out of there.

[k9bfriender]

@Kimstu

Good idea; that would no doubt have convinced her that you were not in fact a scary violent person and she had no cause to be afraid of you. :dubious:

If a woman becomes convinced that her actions were justified because of the reaction she gets after she initiates an unprovoked assault upon another, that’s not the fault of the person that she assaulted.

Honestly, I get that guys find it irritating or insulting to be suspected of being potentially dangerous (and I agree that it’s idiotic for a woman to openly project suspicion and fear towards somebody she thinks might be potentially dangerous, instead of remaining alert but as calm as possible). But you know, your fundamental human goodness and decency aren’t immediately perceptible to the superficial observation of random strangers.

Maybe try cutting scared women a little more slack instead of fixating on how their fear is an insult and offense toward yourself. In any case, fantasizing about the violence you would have inflicted on a scared woman if her fear had led her to assault you in what she believed to be self-defense is probably not a good way to make women less scared to be around you.

I don’t see it as “fantasizing” about violence, that impugns a motive that is not justified by what chimera in the slightest.

It was acknowledging the reality of the situation. If he were assaulted with no provocation, then he may have reacted to violence with violence of his own. That an unprovoked assault upon his person would make him angry enough that he goes beyond just defending himself.

I assume you are not saying that if a guy is maced in an elevator for absolutely no reason, he should have no ability to defend himself?

Now, I would not have quite as violent a reaction, but if I were being maced in an elevator with no provocation, I would stop the person from macing me, and it would not be by asking politely that they stop.

[monstro]

I have a friend. She has a grandson. About six years ago, her grandson (who was a teenager at the time) made the local news for setting fire to a million dollars worth of property. It was kind of a big deal. At the sentencing, he lost his composure and burst into loud sobs. Had to be carried out of the room. This too got played in the news. I just did a google search and his name (along with his mugshot) still comes up on the first page, along with a vivid description of his emotional breakdown. (How many otherwise interested girls have googled his name and read all that, I wonder) He did a couple of years in the slammer and now he’s back home.

My friend told me that she and her husband don’t have anything to do with him. On the few occasions he has come over for dinner, he just sits there with a dumb look on his face, giving monosyllabic responses to their questions. She says he’s drugged up all the time (I didn’t ask whether she thinks these are prescription or recreational drugs). So they don’t invite him over anymore. To me, it sounds like he is treated by that whole side of the family as the family “dud”. Meanwhile, all my friend can talk about is his other grandson, the future lawyer.

Maybe I shouldn’t feel anything, but I actually do feel sad for this “dud”, even though he was an asshole arsonist who brought shame to his family. My friend told me that when he was a little kid, he would hide under tables because he was so anxious. He didn’t talk a lot and he had poor eye contact. She says she always knew he was troubled. The news articles point out that he was actually a good student in high school and was applying to prestigious schools when he fucked everything up for himself. His courtroom defense was that he set fires to cope with anxiety. So yeah, he was definitely troubled. But not psychopathic kind of trouble.

I’m kind of bracing myself for what seems inevitable, but probably isn’t. I tell myself he likely isn’t going to be a mass shooter, because what are the chances of that happening? But still, I’m worried. And I’m scared he’ll get his revenge by going after my friend and her husband. I don’t think my friend deserves to die for being unable to love her grandson. I would cry a million tears if this were to happen. But I also imagine it must feel like straight-up hell to be the family fuck-up and not know how redeem to yourself. Sometimes I do get teary-eyed thinking about him, a guy I’ve never met.

[Chimera]

Kimstu, you can see my response in the May minirants thread.

[Chimera]

@k9bfriender

If a woman becomes convinced that her actions were justified because of the reaction she gets after she initiates an unprovoked assault upon another, that’s not the fault of the person that she assaulted.

I don’t see it as “fantasizing” about violence, that impugns a motive that is not justified by what chimera in the slightest.

It was acknowledging the reality of the situation. If he were assaulted with no provocation, then he may have reacted to violence with violence of his own. That an unprovoked assault upon his person would make him angry enough that he goes beyond just defending himself.

I assume you are not saying that if a guy is maced in an elevator for absolutely no reason, he should have no ability to defend himself?

Now, I would not have quite as violent a reaction, but if I were being maced in an elevator with no provocation, I would stop the person from macing me, and it would not be by asking politely that they stop.

Bingo. As I said in the other thread, Kimstu is insulting me about a situation she knows next to nothing about, deciding that she has to White Knight someone in a story because whatever and I’m a man so I must be violent and wrong.

[Velocity]

@Kimstu

Honestly, I get that guys find it irritating or insulting to be suspected of being potentially dangerous (and I agree that it’s idiotic for a woman to openly project suspicion and fear towards somebody she thinks might be potentially dangerous, instead of remaining alert but as calm as possible). But you know, your fundamental human goodness and decency aren’t immediately perceptible to the superficial observation of random strangers.

Maybe try cutting scared women a little more slack instead of fixating on how their fear is an insult and offense toward yourself. In any case, fantasizing about the violence you would have inflicted on a scared woman if her fear had led her to assault you in what she believed to be self-defense is probably not a good way to make women less scared to be around you.

This is little different than the logic about taking precautions against minorities. I recall Obama speaking about how, before he became a Senator, people would clutch their purses when alone with him in an elevator, or people would lock their car doors when he approached. The underlying logic is the same: “Category X of people (men or minorities) commit a higher rate of crimes, per capita, than people outside Category X, therefore I need to be careful and take extra precautions around Category X people.”

[dropzone]

@Tee

Maybe, maybe not. I’m drawing from my experiences from when I worked with engineers. Mechanical, Civil, Professional. I was essentially the acquired peripheral social skillset of the group, a.k.a. Secretary. So I know a lot of people whose social skills are not the best. They’re far from being losers. They aren’t single either, most were married with children. But their social skills are not the best, and it ranges.

Your reading assignment is Engineers of Jihad, looking into why engineers are over-represented in violent jihadi groups. They expanded it into a book, but the PDF is free.

@monstro

(By the way, the little boy who threw sand in my eyes actually didn’t mean to. Cuz we were both throwing sand. The sand just wound up going into my face instead of his. It’s funny how we have a totally different interpretation of that day, and we were both there. At any rate, he was five fucking years old. Even if he meant to throw sand at me, it is totally plausible that he didn’t mean any harm. If I can feel compassion for that little boy and I was the one who got hurt, why can’t you eek out a little? Sheesh.)

I sometimes forget you’re sisters. The way you argue should remind me.

[monstro]

I cussed out an old woman in public once when I was seriously depressed. It was like one moment I felt totally numb. A complete robot. And the next–right after she almost hit me with her car when I had the right of way, but had the nerve to yell at me for not watching where I was going–I was full of white hot rage. Without even knowing what I was doing, I unleashed on her with my words.

I’m pretty sure I only confirmed to her that black people are threatening and scary.

But when you are mentally ill, those kind of considerations don’t cross your mind. I have never cussed out strangers in public before and I hope I never do again. But I don’t feel ashamed about what I did because I know I didn’t have any control over myself in that singular moment in time. It really did feel like I was possessed by a demon. If she had stepped out of her car and come at me, I really don’t know what I would have done.

Chimera should not feel bad for “fantasizing”. He should feel relief that he had some restraint–more restraint that I was able to summon.

[Kimstu]

@k9bfriender

If a woman becomes convinced that her actions were justified because of the reaction she gets after she initiates an unprovoked assault upon another, that’s not the fault of the person that she assaulted.

How a person reacts to an unprovoked assault is their choice, and their choice definitely has a bearing on what other people, including their attacker, can reasonably think about them.

An unoffending man who gets undeservedly maced by a frightened woman has every right to call the cops on her, as well as to shout “For Chrissakes, what’d you do that for!??”, to yell for help, and to defend himself by fighting back if she sustains her assault on him. (As I understand it, the prescribed procedure for macing an attacker is to run like hell as soon as you’ve sprayed them, so if she sprays and runs then you no longer need to defend yourself against her. At that point, running after her and beating her up would be retaliation, not self-defense.)

But a man who responds to undeservedly being maced by a frightened woman by beating her within an inch of her life has forfeited his claim to be considered the primary victim in this scenario. There is such a thing as proportionate response to unprovoked attack, and that ain’t it.

Similarly, I think that if a nasty creep gropes a woman’s bottom in a crowded subway car, she is entitled to yell at him, try to embarrass him, stomp on his foot or slap his hand, but not to stab a kitchen knife into his balls. Being “assaulted with no provocation” entitles you to fight back and defend yourself, but not in a murderously disproportionate way.

@k9bfriender

I don’t see it as “fantasizing” about violence, that impugns a motive that is not justified by what chimera in the slightest.

All we know about the situation is that Chimera perceived that the woman in the elevator appeared afraid of him and had her mace ready, presumably to defend herself in case he attacked her. Thirty years later, instead of saying something like “Well, I think she was being paranoid and overreacting but at least she didn’t get carried away and mace me for no reason”, he’s telling us how angry he was and how disproportionately and violently he would have reacted if she had initially attacked him—which, according to his own account, she showed no sign whatsoever of intending or wanting to do.

I condemn all unprovoked violence by women against men just as strongly as unprovoked violence against men by women. I think there are far too many women who consider themselves entitled to hit men and get away with it, and I think a lot of them need to spend some time in the cooler re-examining their choices.

But I am also disturbed to see how many men seem to regard the prospect of unprovoked violence by women, no matter how minor, as an almost desirable opportunity for massive retaliatory violence. What Chimera’s describing isn’t on the scale of “men’s rights activists” wanting to turn “Domestic Violence Awareness Month” into “Bash a Violent Bitch Month”, but it does sound gratuitously bloodthirsty enough to come across as kind of “off”.

@k9bfriender

I assume you are not saying that if a guy is maced in an elevator for absolutely no reason, he should have no ability to defend himself?

No, of course not. But there’s a difference between defending oneself against an unprovoked non-deadly assault, and using an unprovoked non-deadly assault as an excuse to damn near murder the assaulter.

Neither women nor men should be engaging in defensive violence beyond what is needed to actually, you know, defend themselves.

[monstro]

@dropzone

Your reading assignment is Engineers of Jihad, looking into why engineers are over-represented in violent jihadi groups. They expanded it into a book, but the PDF is free.
I sometimes forget you’re sisters. The way you argue should remind me.

you with the face should know better than to argue with me. She knows good and well that I fight dirty, and I go straight for the eyes.

[Chimera]

@Kimstu

How a person

Shut up already.

You’re making this about YOU and your judgement.

[Kimstu]

@Chimera

Kimstu, you can see my response in the May minirants thread.

I haven’t been reading the minirants thread, but if there’s any further non-Pitty response you want to make to me here in this thread, I’ll be glad to read that.

@Chimera

Kimstu is insulting me about a situation she knows next to nothing about, deciding that she has to White Knight someone in a story because whatever and I’m a man so I must be violent and wrong.

Uh, no, begbert2 is also a man and he also thought your description of the situation was kind of off-putting.

And all I know about the situation in your anecdote is what you told us. Which is that a woman who shared an elevator with you seemed unjustifiably scared of you and was holding a can of mace, presumably to use in self-defense if you attacked her. But your story gave no indication that she intended or wanted to attack you without provocation, and in fact, by your own account, she did not.

And according to what you chose to share with us, her fear made you so angry that if she had attacked you without provocation, you would have, and I quote, “likely beaten her within an inch of her life”.

No, I am not “White Knighting” this random stranger from a thirty-year-old anecdote when I say that that comes across as a little “off”.

@Velocity

This is little different than the logic about taking precautions against minorities. I recall Obama speaking about how, before he became a Senator, people would clutch their purses when alone with him in an elevator, or people would lock their car doors when he approached.

Yeah, I already agreed that it is stupid for women to openly project fear and suspicion towards somebody they think might be dangerous. It is also, as you note, a rude exhibition of unprovoked hostility, often reflecting some kind of discriminatory bias.

But that doesn’t mean that it justifies imaginary scenarios of unprovoked attack and bloodily disproportionate retaliation. Can you imagine the outcry if Obama had said “If one of those idiot purse-clutching women had attacked me for no reason but her fear, I’d likely have beaten her within an inch of her life”? :eek:

[Tee]

@Robot_Arm

I don’t know if I’m in that category, either, but I can do better than canned soup most nights.

But even among that category, as you say, some find a partner and some don’t. Does it just come down to luck? (Rhetorical question, mostly.)

Some luck, some basic effort (look nice, stand by the keg), some willingness to be mildly bullied by friends and family to put themselves out there, go to that party, meet their sister, take that trip, etc. It does work for people, and mind you it’s for those with no game and no expectations. They’re convinced everything is a futile endeavor until one day it’s not. That’s what happens.

[Chimera]

@Tee

Some luck, some basic effort (look nice, stand by the keg), some willingness to be mildly bullied by friends and family to put themselves out there, go to that party, meet their sister, take that trip, etc. It does work for people, and mind you it’s for those with no game and no expectations. They’re convinced everything is a futile endeavor until one day it’s not. That’s what happens.

Hey hey hey, only in the south!

[Beckdawrek]

Hey, hey, hey, I live in the south and I don’t know anyone who dates their sister. I do know of someone whose child has the same person as her Dad and Papaw. Kinda gross!

[Tee]

@Chimera

Hey hey hey, only in the south!

Oops. Sorry.

[P-man]

@Tee

Some luck, some basic effort (look nice, stand by the keg), some willingness to be mildly bullied by friends and family to put themselves out there, go to that party, meet their sister, take that trip, etc. It does work for people, and mind you it’s for those with no game and no expectations. They’re convinced everything is a futile endeavor until one day it’s not. That’s what happens.

Yup, one week I was telling members of a therapy group that I was trying to get used to the idea of being alone forever. The next week I went to that party (that I was considering blowing off earlier in the day, but decided it would be shabby of me since it was a friend’s thirtieth birthday party), stood by the keg, and met the woman I’ve been with for 22 years. It was really minimal effort. I can’t speak for anyone else, but in my case it was 99% luck.

[Chimera]

You know, it’s always easy to say that people should be able to get out, put themselves out, just make an effort.

Depression is a helluva thing. Anxiety is downright terrifying at times. I know from personal experience.

I’d be willing to bet there are a nearly equal number of women with the same social anxiety issues. The clear difference of course is that they’re not gathering on The Internet and working themselves into violence. That I know of, anyway. I would not be shocked if there are women’s sites where men are nothing but villains upon whom all the world’s evils are laid.

Mocking Incels and telling their ideas are stupid isn’t a bad thing. We often make bad decisions or get bad ideas into our heads and don’t realize it until others say “You know, that was really stupid.”* Pointing out that they are not making the effort is a good idea, but it isn’t the be all, end all of the situation. Getting them to realize that their ideas and their anger aren’t productive and won’t solve their problems is the end goal.

• How else do you explain people putting out ad campaigns that are astonishingly stupid, offensive or just plain ill conceived? A whole ton of people were involved in those - they weren’t just one person’s decision and production - but it took until they hit the public for the outcry to penetrate that yes, this was stupid.

[you_with_the_face]

@monstro

Sorry, I just have a hard time assuming that Elliot Rodger was talking about killing girls for not giving him sex when he was a ten-year-old kid.

There’s nothing implausible about a boy who is inordinately jealous of anyone who has something he doesn’t have, especially if that person is “lessor” based on things like race, gender, and class. There’s nothing implausible about a boy who sees girls as alien things and treats them accordingly either.

Oh, you meant being an asshole! Why didn’t you just say that? When you said “toxic ideology”, I thought you actually meant “toxic ideology”. :smack:

I’m talking about assholes who believes assholelish things about people, hence their assholelishness, You can call this grandma’s apple pie if you want or you can call it toxic ideology, but what we shouldn’t be calling it is just weirdness or creepiness or some other condition that on the whole is harmless. That’s an oversimplification that should actually annoy anyone who considers themselves a bit on the weird side.

I’m sure lots of big ole weirdos do bad things. But so do lots of non-weirdos.

And some weirdos have tons of friends, while others are social pariahs. We could go down this path all day but it’s circular one, right? It’s already evident the issue is too complex to reduce to these types of arguments.

Don’t you remember all the cool kids who put your bookbag in the middle of busy street traffic and threw your lunch pal around the classroom when the teacher wasn’t around? Don’t you remember the Chads who called you names and smacked you in the face around while everyone laughed? Because I remember. But those kids weren’t relegated to the margins of the social hierarchy for those crimes. They were permitted to fluorish and become even bigger assholes (or alternatively, grow out of their immaturity and become upstanding members of society).

Of course I remember. If I had to guess, these jerks weren’t mentally disordered on top of being assholes! So they could modulate their behavior so as not to incur major social costs. A asshole who is not adept at this because of mental issues simply can not perform this juggling act.

I have read a bit about both of these guys, and none of them were described by the people who knew them to be bullies or objectively hateful people. Elliot was described as painfully shy and quiet. Adam would have meltdowns over the slightest things and barely talked. (He also was obsessed with Dance Revolution, which is fascinating). These guys as kids weren’t socializing enough to display asshole behavior. They were just kind of existing.

Elliot Rodger’s history showed him to be someone who has long been obsessed with status and envy. He might not have been a bully, but you don’t have to bully anyone to be a jerk, really. “They weren’t socializing enough to display asshole behavior” is a conclusion you’re drawing, but relationships require empathy as well as give and take. Compromise. Respect. A sense of humor. None of us know him, we aren’t his therapist, so how can we suppose that things like basic caring weren’t difficult for him?

Adam Lanza had a lot of many mental issues going on and had a hard time in social settings because of it. If there had been a way to treat his underlying mental health issues, there’s no reason to think social isolation (and his eventually obsession with mass murder) would have still be factors. Dude should’ve been in a hospital, not living at home.

At any rate, I don’t know if I understand the larger point you are making.

My point is real simple.

• There is no need to *suppose * things about Rodger, Lanza, or any other killers just to support your larger point about creating inclusive spaces for socially awkward male youth.

• I agree that we can do better with how we treat single men. I agree that virgin shaming is a problem. I agree that social isolation is a problem.

• I disagree we can make sweeping generalizations about all these incel killer dudes as if we are certain they are simply on one extreme of the unhappy single male continuum. It’s possible that harmless “weirdness” is more likely in the latter; other shit is more likely in the former.

I don’t feel like what I’m saying should be all that controversial or nebulous. But I’m kind of getting tired of saying it. So this will likely be my last post in this thread