If only they could just stay in the phase where they beat the shit out of each other all the time, everyone would be happy.
If a person is getting ‘virgin shaming’ and are over 12 years old I would like to suggest that you try to make a new group of friends that are commonly referred to as adults.
That this is worth discussion on the SDMB is nuts.
The “entitled man” is something every woman encounters and has to deal with. They are a minority, but they are a persistent minority.
There’s the sort of man who will relentlessly pursue a woman and will NOT take “no” for an answer. Some of them will back off if you lie and say you have a boyfriend. For some, that’s not sufficient ownership of a woman by a man and will pursue you unless you have a husband (which is why women have sometimes gone to the extreme of wearing a false wedding ring) and are thus “property” of some man. And then there are the ones that will be deterred by nothing - they will happily take another man’s property if they can, and that “property” includes the man’s woman (because to that sort a woman is either owned or fair game - women have no right to be their own people). THAT sort may well become violent.
Some of the incel links in this thread have the incels’ talking about raping women so their boyfriends and husbands will never see them the same again, throwing acid to ruin a woman’s beauty, and so forth - basically, saying they’re going to break some other man’s toys/property/chattel. No, they don’t think women are human. And I don’t think they understand that there are men who will love their women just as much after a rape as before. Because these angry young men wouldn’t hesitate to abandon someone who isn’t pretty enough by their standards they don’t understand that victims aren’t automatically abandoned by their family and friends out here in the real and at least somewhat sane world.
So yes, the violent minority exist. Do they exist in significant numbers? Define significant and then I can answer you. But since just one of these nutjobs can harm dozens of people, perhaps hundred over a lifetime, it doesn’t take a lot of them in sheer numbers to cause a serious problem.
Are you new here? There is a 7 page thread currently in CS on ordering a sandwich at Subway, fer Og’s sake!
So, quit your job because your co-workers can’t act like adults?
Oooh, I missed that. Gotta go check it out!
You are absolutely correct. But the symmetry of these two sentences made me smile.
Sure. I wouldn’t work for them. Would you?
Or simply ignore the assholes (that they clearly are) until you can find a place with you know, adults.
I have, as the alternative was poverty and homelessness.
I’m about 40, and I have had 27 jobs. The only job that I have had that didn’t have at least one asshole who would call out and mock the socially awkwards is the one I have now, where I’m the owner and the boss.
Some people get called assholes because they’re assholes. If one person calls you an asshole, you can probably ignore it. But if a dozen people call you an asshole then you should stop and consider the possibility that they’re right.
A phrase I’ve used in other threads: * Explanation is not justification.* It seems that many people refuse to take anything other than “because they are evil pieces of shit, and anything else is defending and excusing it” when anyone tries to figure out the wherefores of some criminal behavior, whether they get it right or wrong. But we are humans and many of us want to know what were the stages of the meltdown.
Meanwhile, what I dunno if I’m puzzled or annoyed or amused by is the creation of this neologism, “incel”. Seems to me to describe this class of males who among the many results of their many personal defects are failing at mating, and somehow center around that one consequence as the core major grievance that excuses their acting out against others. And yes, I suppose once upon a time before the networks, they would have just been individual bullies/wifebeaters/psychos with the ocassional old-school serial killer, and would not know that there was this label they could apply to themselves.
I agree, except I think the loneliness of being Forever Alone goes beyond just low self-worth. Being alone means going without the pleasant, even joyful interactions with someone you deeply care about. I don’t define myself by my lack of relationships, or feel worthless (or worth less) because of it, but taking a book instead of a date when I go out to dinner gets real old after a while.
Very well put.
A picture is worth a thousand words.
(For those who’d rather not click, it’s the poster for a movie that came out a few years ago, “We’re the Millers”.)
That may be true, but LGBTQ people also have a lot more positive messages; things like the “it gets better” project, and pride parades. I know there is still very real discrimination and hateful messages directed at that community, and I hope the positive messages help to counteract it to some degree. I don’t see the same for virgins. No one’s telling us it gets better. Where’s the positive messaging, where are the role models? You have to go back 2,000 years to find someone lauded for virginity, and I’m not religious. Even if I was, the Christian message seems to be that virginity is something to be suffered through only until you find the straight, monogamous, married relationship you’re really supposed to.
But, when the consensus is that the people who cannot attract a sexual partner cannot do so because they are assholes, and one cannot attract a sexual partner, what inference is one to take from that?
Same as when people call you a loser, or whatever other insults have been thrown, in just this thread, towards those who are not as capable of attracting mates. Your statement is an excellent example of “virgin shaming”, and that is one of the things that is part of what puts people in a position to be radicalized.
Now, if you are talking about some specific individuals, then sure. They may very well have been assholes right from the start. But you are talking about “these guys”, not individuals. What are “these guys”, but the losers who have some reason that they are less successful in their romantic lives?
Also, a trip through basic and a couple years of service generally instills an acceptable baseline of personal hygiene and physical fitness. They may not smell like roses or have muscles like Schwarzenegger, but post-military guys have at least that baseline going for them.
Does it guarantee they get laid? Nope. But it’s a couple more items stacked in their favor.
They also tend to have a bunch of money when they get out.
We need to get word to these groups that the old methods are still very much available.
Maybe not cults so much.
You keep insisting on arguing a point that nobody else is making.
As I said upthread, I don’t think most Incels are born that way. I think they are created. They are created in response to both perceived and real slights. Maybe we Forever Aloners need to just suck it up and not talk about all slights since the normies will just deny they exist anyway. But the normies can’t then be surprised when Incels explode with rage. Rage is what happens when people are told to STFU one too many times.
I think understanding the stigma of virginity (not just in terms of sex, but in terms of meaningful relationship) is essential to understanding where the anger comes from, though. That’s what the OP was asking about. The misogyny and murder may very well be separate things, but the virgin-shaming (as well as the basement-dwelling, Mc-Job shaming) is what pushes people into the clutches of the misogynist and murdering mindset. And it isn’t just the shaming shaming–the stuff you can tell is shaming from a million miles away. It’s all the internet “tough love” that’s waiting for you if you deign to talk about your lack of success, dished out by people who don’t know a single thing about you but still think they have you figured out. That’s often shaming too, but dressed up as advice. The internet is a cold harsh place to those who find themselves in the “loser” category. So it is no wonder (to me) that so-called losers wind up in the very worst corners, listening to the very worse voices. It seems like there aren’t a lot a whole lot of people who can just listen without judgment, without throwing out platitudes, without handing out tired advice. Even when I try to be this kind of person, I probably fail at it because it is so tempting to find reasons to blame someone for their problems. I found the non-judgmental listener in therapy, but many people can’t afford therapy. They turn to family, friends, and internet strangers.
Wow. I’ve never been dismissed in such a smarmy, condescending way before.
Check this. Most adult virgins have double, triple, quadriple whammies. It’s not just that they’ve never had a girlfriend. But they also don’t have many friends. They often have mental illness or neurological issues to deal with (like I deal with). They may have physical defects, like severe acne or obesity. They likely do not have very prestigious jobs and thus lack the trappings of financial success. So your average Incel isn’t fucked-up in the head because he can’t get laid. He’s fucked-up in the head because he’s at the bottom of every hierarchy he can think of. And everywhere he turns, someone is shaming him. Shaming him cuz he hasn’t touched a girl. Shaming him cuz he’s an Aspie. Shaming him because he’s fat and can’t run around the track without vomitting. Shaming him because he lives in his mom’s basement. I didn’t share my story so that you could tell me “It’s not so bad”. I shared my story to convey that if a 40-year-old professional woman who is happily single can feel the sting of virgin shaming, surely it is not hard to imagine how a 20-something underemployed guy trying to fit in a world that puts tremendous value on social contacts and relationships could feel it a lot worse.
Is it possible for you to take my story at face value and not try to paint me as some overly sensitive crazy person? Has anyone ever poked fun at you in that way? Because never have I ever been tempted to do such a thing. Calling it “rudeness” completely misses the fucking point. It was like telling a nigger joke when the conversation is about a basketball game.
Just because there are millions of tales of woe out there doesn’t mean that some specific kind of tales aren’t important. I would argue that it is really important to understand any set of experiences shared by men who are mowing people on the street. If you can’t be bothered to listen to people because you think you know their story already, then you can’t be surprised when those people decide you don’t matter to them and they unleash on you.
Sorry, I’m not going to feed your curiosity about this. I’m not in the mood to have my answers to you pulled apart. Not by you or anyone else.
Great.
I don’t know what you’re asking me. And I don’t think I have enough patience to come up with a response even if I did know.
Consider that this is a free-flowing conversation, and that you seem to be talking about the very worst of the worst Incel, while I’m talking about the subpopulation in general who have faced similar struggles as Incels but may not actually identify with their mindset.
And though I was addressing you, I wasn’t thinking just about your “good manners” remark. I was also thinking about the invisibility of the romantically unattached and how lack of honesty perpetuates myths and stereotypes. The only visible representatives we have of adult virgins are people like Elliot Rodgers or the Fedora-wearing unfortunately looking individuals we see in internet memes. We don’t see happy, cool, good-looking professionals who are doing positive things in their communities and in their life. And we never hear their stories. Why? Do they not exist? They must exist, because I exist. I can only guess they are invisible because they’ve heard that it isn’t “good manners” for them to talk openly about their lives. It is alright for other people to talk about their sexuality and their romance drama, but no one wants to hear the sob stories from the 40-year-old virgin because it’s TMI. Why it’s TMI, I don’t know. But that’s what you’re telling me, so it must be true. At any rate, because these otherwise successful people keep their lives and their struggles secret, we are left with unemployed neckbeards being the representative face. Perhaps if there was none of this shaming shit (implicit or explicit), everyone–including Incels–would be able to better appreciate the diversity of romance success and failure. Perhaps the Incels would realize that many women, even those who aren’t 500 lbs, also face hardship in the romance department. Perhaps they would also see that even guys who have everything (nice house, nice car, nice job) can make it to 30 without having a girl on his arm.
As long as there is a taboo against talking about this, expect Incels to just keep being crazier and more entitled.
It’s hard for you to tell because none of that matters to the thrust of my post. I didn’t mention it because it’s not important. But FWIW, I’m happily unattached. I don’t want a mate or a tryst. I’m perfectly fine with my lot in life. My life has never been greater, and I envy no one. Yet people still find a way to undermine that happiness with their shitty little comments and jokes and nosiness. It was only through good luck that I endured that shittiness when I wasn’t happy with my life. If I hadn’t found something in my life to be proud of, who knows? Maybe I would have become an Incel (something that was actually started by a woman).
So what is your solution to the problem? Let them blow themselves up and take everyone down with them? Surely, not being a totally stupid poster, you can think of some basic things we could all do to help young people who are dealing with social failure. Because I think this is what we are dealing with when it comes to Incels. We aren’t talking about evil people who just want to be evil for evil’s sake. We are dealing with social failures who don’t have anywhere to turn with their social failures except a dangerous echo chamber. The world that you inhabit doesn’t want to hear their stories because “TMI, bro! And other people have it worse, so you get no sympathy from me!” If I were a 20-something guy and I had to deal with such dismissiveness, I could see myself noping out of the polite society quite easily.
Maybe not 12, but definitely 18. It’s nobody else’s business. :rolleyes:
You are right, no one has called these incels assholes or thrown any other insults towards them. My bad.