What should a person who is celebrating the murder of women they dont know - based on nothing more than age and gender- be called?
Why would you assume that everyone who has difficulties in their social life be celebrating murder?
Velocity put forth a pretty well laid out explanation for what causes this sort of radicalization.
Little nemo responded by saying that are just a bunch of assholes.
And now you chime in to say that anyone who is having difficulties with their love lives are celebrating the murder of women.
You want to talk shit about the actual people who actually hurt or killed people, go ahead. You want to talk shit about people who are celebrating such, knock yourself out.
But the people you are referring to here are neither of those categories, but you just lump them all together anyway.
So much to, um, understand. What is it that prevents you from having lunch or dinner with someone else? I mean, you’re not asking them for sex and/or a relationship, so that’s not the deal-breaker. You read books, so you either know stuff (nonfiction) or can imagine stuff (fiction), or both, which indicates that you might be interesting. You can, presumably, talk. If I take you at your word that you are unable to achieve even a pleasant, much less orgasmic, connection with anybody else, whether you have any sexual interest or not, I have to believe that just maybe there’s something you’re not telling us. I’ve taken books to a thousand restaurants and it never once occurred to me that I was a victim.
Also, capitalizing Forever Alone, (just my opinion) is not just pointlessly fatalistic, but creepy as Hell.
I won’t characterize your dragging in a movie poster that has the word “virgin” in it. Be grateful.
[QUOTE=Robot Arm]
…That may be true, but LGBTQ people also have a lot more positive messages; things like the “it gets better” project, and pride parades.
[/QUOTE]
Seriously? You are claiming that right now LGBTQ folks are better off, as a group, than self-identified virgins and celibates, when it comes to prejudice and discrimination?
[QUOTE=Robot Arm]
…I know there is still very real discrimination and hateful messages directed at that community, and I hope the positive messages help to counteract it to some degree. I don’t see the same for virgins. No one’s telling us it gets better.
[/QUOTE]
Oh, for Pity’s sake, yes you are.
[Quote=Robot Arm]
…Where’s the positive messaging, where are the role models? You have to go back 2,000 years to find someone lauded for virginity…
[/QUOTE]
Today is Sunday. You have to go back to this morning.
[QUOTE=Robot Arm]
…the Christian message seems to be that virginity is something to be suffered through only until you find the straight, monogamous, married relationship you’re really supposed to.
[/QUOTE]
Nobody’s defending the Christian ideal of sexuality (especially the “incels,” interpretation, although you seem to have gotten it badly wrong too). But again, we are badly off topic, unless you think anything you’ve said explains or justifies violent misogyny and murder.
Yeah, I’m kind of confused about enipla’s comment too. Who said anything about being virgin shamed by their friends? I must have missed this.
And as The King of Soup said, at any moment all of us supposedly are subject to shaming about something. If we all bailed out of friendships based on a couple of inartful comments or jokes, none of us would have any friends. Not having friends would be a worse situation to be in than not having romance, IMHO.
The incel who was drinking a celebratory beer for each woman murdered between 18-35* in the OP * is an asshole. I am saying some of the incel community are assholes. Some are not. Not “everyone having problems with their love lives”, not all virgins - assholes who celebrate this sort of bullshit violence in the name of their movement or incel revolution or whatever. Can I call them assholes?
ETA: I’m not lumping together anyone - I am referring to a specific quote in the OP. Someone who has *been *radicalized and apparently self identifies as an incel.
And if an incel who may be radicalized at some point lashes out at me because I wont have sexwith him - well, then, that guy is an asshole, too.
Sure, but you were broad brushing with that last statement. Little Nemo said that everyone described by Velocity’s post was an asshole. I disagreed with that statement. If you hadn’t quoted me, then I would not think that you were talking about all the same people I was talking about. I can accept that you just didn’t follow the thread back far enough to see that I was not talking about the people in the OP, but the people described by Velocity’s post.
I didn’t follow all the way back, I was just responding to your statement that no one was calling incels assholes. I went with the interpretation that while not all incels are assholes, some sure as hell are. Like the guy in the OP who was drinking celebratory beers. No broad brush was intended- hence my reference to A person who is celebrating murder. Not that incels in general celebrate murder. I was pointing out that one incel who definitely deserved to be called an asshole.
ETA I apologize for the confusion.
All good, but I did say these incels, as in the ones referred to in Velocity’s post, who were called assholes by Little Nemo.
I know stuff, I can imagine other stuff, I have interests and hope I’m interesting, and I can talk. I have friends who mean the world to me, some that I’ve made on this very board. But anything more intimate or romantic has always eluded me.
I capitalized it because I was responding to monstro, who also capitalized it as a means of distinguishing people who are alone for different reasons and in different ways.
No, please do. If the question is about virgin shaming, I think a poster displayed in theaters around the country would qualify. And you don’t get to decide what counts as shaming; the people who are shamed do.
No, I am not claiming that at all.
And the phrase “self-identified virgins” is fascinating. You are, or you aren’t.
As I said, I’m not religious.
Downside of friends is that they do virgin shame, but in a caring way. “Why don’t you go to the party? Bet you dollar to donuts that you’ll get laid.” “Awww, yeah, that girl that asked you out dumped you on the second date, looks like you dodged a bullet there.” Fun stuff like that. Advice that is worse than useless, and encouragement that just leaves you hurt.
It’s been awhile, but I remember it. Not that I get that much sex these days, I just don’t care as much as I did when I was in my 20s.
People who are not friends are a bit crueler. Working with people who know you haven’t had a date in the last 4 years is not much fun. College roommates are even worse. I don’t know if “virgin-shaming” was a named thing back then, but it certainly was a thing.
People went out of their way to make you feel less than, as if you were trash and barely worthy of breathing, if you were not sexually active. This didn’t help with the self confidence or frustrations, so it makes trying to be rational about dating that much harder.
And, believe it or not, I really want to be your friend. It’s just that I want to do it honestly.
And, honestly, people who want sex and don’t get to have sex, for whatever reason, no doubt suffer a little (I kind of know about this, because I too have wanted sex and not had sex), and deserve some sympathy, and people who want sex and never get to have sex may deserve even more sympathy. Both groups deserve dignity and courtesy: neither group deserves some autonomous female person to give them access to her body, and neither group gets to whine about discrimination because of it.
Nor do you, for that matter, get to call me smarmy and condescending because I was extremely polite about your personal memories of virgin-shaming, and also pointed out the extreme differences between your experiences (from your own description) and those of other marginalized people. I was very careful to distinguish between your pain and the manufactured pain of the “incels.” And I still think that we are arguing for absolutely no good reason. Unsought loneliness is a tragedy. It’s not a tragedy that can be solved other than on an individual basis. And when the cause of loneliness in a man is rooted in a solipsistic hatred of women, it is less a tragedy than the proper order of things. What are you objecting to in this?
Reading various posts in this thread I am not sure if I agree completely or not. Or if they are created if it is the state of involuntary celibacy and perceived societal judgement of that which has done the creation, or other things.
There are some people who simply are angry unhappy people, whether born that way, or created by early childhood experiences, and as adults look for someone to blame and hate, and a group to be a part of. Which “other” they glom their blame and hate onto, and which group they attach to for a sense of belonging, may be just a function of chance.
There are some who are angry, resentful, and unhappy because they resent that “others” have more status than they do. That anger and resentment will attach somewhere, aimed at some “other”, but if not at one where or other then at another.
It seems to me though that you are on to something in these lines:
The online incel community offers them … relationships with others, validation of what they are feeling without negative judgements being passed or implied, friends, even a sense of family, or at least of belonging to somewhere and to somebody.
It may be less that the internet is a cold harsh place but that the real world has fewer social institutions with face to face contact (be they going to church on Sunday or even the corner bar or coffee shop where everyone really does know your name) and it is increasingly easy for those made anxious by real world social contact and with less than great social skills to simply avoid it … which of course makes the anxiety and the relative lack of skills worse. More and more of us are living lives more socially isolated than before, and for some their online community is the closest thing to friends and family they have.
Sex is not a human need. It is a drive. But social connection I think is a need. That does not need to be a romantic connection, but it does have to somehow feel meaningful in some way, even if it is the sense of shared purpose and not of affection.
That lack may be more the ultimate cause for those who join these communities than is the perceived and real shaming over being alone, or resentment over lack of status compared to the “other”.
Loneliness, and maladaptive responses to it because adaptive options are not so readily available or are too scary to attempt, may be more the ultimate cause. This issue being just a visible one of many negative impacts that its increase has on us.
IF so then what societal action is then indicated in response? I don’t know.
This might be part of the problem for the baggers. As more women take professional jobs, long overdue, more men in these jobs marry women at the same level as opposed to those at a lower professional level. I know the stereotype is that men want to be superior in a relationship but the reality is different. Even 45 years ago know man I knew said, even in private, that they saw intelligence as a bad thing in a woman.
So neither men not women have to settle any more. The bagger however, who watches movies where people like him get the hot women, might think he does, and then gets mad at all women.
In the old days men and women not in relationships would have relatives and friends try to fix them up. Maybe we need a Forever Alone dating site (for those who prefer not to be alone.) I can say from experience that it is easier to be awkward with someone else who is awkward than with someone who is perfect.
Yeah, friends can be a blessing and a curse. I think social media exacerbates the social angst because of the “highlight reel” phenomenon. You see all your friends at the club buying drinks for pretty girls (with the selfies to prove it) and of course you’re either going to feel pressure to do the same or feel sad that you aren’t able to. You see all your friends taking nice vacations, hanging out with pretty girls on the beach, and of course you’re going to wonder what’s wrong with you that you’re stuck at home, watching another episode of “The Walking Dead” with your dick in your hand. Of course, your parents and other old fogies will scold you about comparing yourself to other people, but look at them. They all have the nice house, the nice car, the nice job, and the nice significant other. Of course they aren’t comparing themselves to other people. Why the fuck would they? And every year you watch the gulf between you and your friends grow wider as they continue to find success while you flounder and fall short of expectations. Dritfing apart isn’t anything new, but now social media allows you to watch this happen in real time.
I never got sucked into social media, so I never had to deal with friends’ highlight reels making me feel insecure or depressed. I think it is difficult for the average Gen Xer or Boomer to relate to this kind of misery. Worse, it is not socially acceptable to talk about these feelings because FRIENDS ARE SUPPOSED TO BE HAPPY FOR EACH OTHER HOW DARE YOU!!! So you have to keep those feelings inside.
I’m very happy I’m not a 20-something. I don’t think I could handle it.
However good boundaries build good relationships. I know what Miss Manners’ advice would be: “Why do you want to know that?” said icily.
And if this clown was in a relationship it is proof positive that you don’t have to be socially competent to have one.
I think I would have preferrred you not be extremely polite. If you don’t care about adult virgins or their issues, just say that. Don’t pee on my leg and then bend over backwards to gently and politely assure me its raining. I don’t want or need your extreme politeness. My feelings aren’t that fragile, and your opinion doesn’t matter that much to me.
At no point did I talk about my “pain”. You made my story out to be more dramatic than it was. I wasn’t throwing it out there so you could compare it to the struggles of other oppressed people. Or for you to lecture me on the more serious woes in the world. I was merely using it to challenge your ridiculous notion that there isn’t any virgin-shaming. It’s great that now you concede that there is. But I don’t need your pity, sympathy, or yes!–condescension. I just wanted you to say you were wrong on that particular point. Jeez.
Really? I am kind of thinking if you specifically self-indentify as an incel, you are by definition blaming your sexual woes on women. Which in my book pretty much makes you an asshole.
The short answer is Radicalization. When you take any population that is unhappy, put them all together, that dissatisfaction feeds off each other and turns to anger. That anger gets channeled outward away form their group to whether they think is causing their problem. Add people who take advantage of this situation to direct the anger even more and there you have it.
I should have said, “Who told this fucking rando he could talk to me? I don’t even know him!”
I know you’re joking, but this knowledge actually is quite comforting to me. I don’t know if it would be comforting to the stereotypical Incel, though.
Although I am not monstro I feel compelled to disagree on this point. While I agree that virgin-shaming is not sufficient justification for murder, virgin-shaming leading to misogyny, or contributing to it, is not so far-fetched.
From the standpoint of being neither LGBTQ nor virgin nor asexual nor celibate - meaning, not in any of the groups affected - this still looks to me like a debate as to whether it’s better to break your foot or your hand. The details of the inconveniences may differ, but it’s obvious even to an outsider that there is ample pain to go around. Frankly, when the discussion has turned to virgin-shaming and the negative experiences of those who are not in relationships (voluntary or not) saying “Oh, but this group over here has it worse!” is tone-deaf at best.
I don’t tell African-Americans there’s no racism, I don’t recommend telling the elderly there’s no ageism, and, again, when the discussion has turned to the negative experiences of the non-sexual (voluntary or not) it is, again, tone-deaf to imply that virgin-shaming (or celibacy shaming) does not happen, or did not happen.
What a… [del]nice[/del] indirect way to tell someone to shut up because their pain isn’t important enough to speak about.
Once those words are out of your mouth you might seriously consider shutting your mouth and asking no further… because it’s none of your business.
I have, even if I have never been the target of it. It’s never, in my experience, said in a nice way.