Pat: I hate the Jews! They sunk the Titanic!
Mike: The Jews? The Titanic was sunk by an iceberg!
Pat: Iceberg, Goldberg, Ginzberg . . . it’s all the same thing.
Just because you don’t know something doesn’t mean it isn’t so.
Self-fullfilling prophesies manifest themselves in many ways. People will do things that bring suffering or success upon themselves. Most of the time, these actions go unrecognized by the subjects.
Behavioral confirmation is a type of self-fulfilling prophesy whereby people’s social expectations lead them to act in ways that cause others to confirm their expectations.
Several experiments conducted by Mark Snyder (1984) at U. of Minnesota show how, once formed erroneous beliefs about the social world can induce others to confirm those beliefs. There have been many studies conducted that confirm this theory is accurate.
It’s basically this: I’m cursed, people don’t like me, they’re jealous because I’m better than them (Us vs. Them) etc. etc. Believe this long enough and it will eventually become true. At least the behavior will reflect this attitude.
A good example of this might be the stock market. You (the people) see a bad dip and expect a crash. Everyone runs out to save a buck and sure enough there is a crash.
I didn’t figure on having to explain self-fulfilling prophesies but I will get in depth if need be. If there are anys doubt that Israel has historically felt victimized then you need to study their/our history. The Jews started out being “cursed” according to their own scriptures.
I’m not discrediting the actual events that are given as examples by others. The problem with claiming “recent” events as the cause for anti-semitism is the timeline. They have been persecuted since the beginning! Exiled, enslaved, etc. You can’t very well blame this on Jesus’ death.;j
I love Israel (and all mankind) and so do you! Quit feeding into this bigoted bullshit. Remember a few bad apples…or do you hate all Muslims as well?
Uh? t-keela, you have presented a plausible chain of events or thoughts that could lead to your conclusion. However, Captain Amazing actually asked for evidence that any sizable number of Jews actually believe your construction. In other words, do you have a reference to any prominent Jewish leaders who expressed this idea? Do you have any citations to a study or poll that demonstrated that Jews (in general or in some large minority) hold this view?
You can trace some of that idea back to Scripture, in which each calamity that is visited upon the Jews (possibly with the exception of the enslavement in Egypt) is preceeded by a break with their covenant.
Extending that religious concept to indicate the actual personal beliefs of Jews regarding history (especially since the Return from Babylon) requires a bit more evidence.
BTW, Where in the world did your last statement come from?
What began as a “curse” evolved into a feeling of victimization and anti-semitism. If I have to cite sources that show that modern Jews feel anger towards them, then I’m wasting my time here. If you don’t believe the Jewish people have historically been a religious people, then forget it. In order to follow a line of thought, certain premises are either accepted or not. Sorry to have expressed a different opinion amongst the intellect.
I feel it’s time to quit blaming and perpetuating the problem. It is not an event that is responsible. It is not “the enemy” that is to blame. I ramble…wasted breath! and BTW
My last statement wasn’t directed at anyone in particular, just those to whom it applies. I should have seperated this comment from the rest with a break. I was in no way accusing the Cap’n of this unacceptable attitude. I apologize if it seemed so.
Bigotry and racism is the cause for most of the world’s problems and the reason this debate goes on.
Peace
I agree with you that modern Jews feel that there is anti-semitism and that historically, Jews have been a religious people. But the thing is, I think Jews feel that there is anti-semitism because there is real anti-semitism…it’s not just a feeling Jews have inflicted on themselves…you know, as you said in your past message, “Israel has felt victimized throughout history”, but that’s because Israel HAS been victimized throughout history.
This is a fairly complex question, and for starters I would say that ongoing Arab emnity toward Jews has nothing to do with age-old Western anti-Semitism (although Arab anti-Semites have subsequently borrowed from that ‘traditon’ including PotEoZ).
The stereotype of Jews as “rich and cheap” comes from their need to develop business savvy in order to prosper upon finding themselves dispersed to countries where they own no land. As Rod Seiger in The Pawnbroker put it, “you buy a piece of cloth, cut it in two, and sell them for a penny more. Then go out and do it again” while resisting the temptation to anything with the profit other than reinvest it.
Jews also value a good education, in part because that’s the one thing that cannot be taken away from you. Once these factors became a part of the culture, Jews were able to become successful businessmen and/or professionals in disproportionate numbers at a time when many Europeans were still uneducated peasants. Once these folks (or ‘volks’ ;)) began to notice that Jews were “dominating” key aspects of society–and that this was the case in many Europen cities–some began to suspect a “conspiracy”.
Of course, plenty of non-Jews were successful as well, but Jews stood out as the cultural “other”, newcomers, interlopers, whose loyalty in to their group (and its conspiracy to dominate) rather than to the nation.
But still, religious differences were one of the main driving forces behind anti-Semitism. The Gospels refer to “the Jews” as having rejected Jesus as the Messiah and condoned his execution, 'nuff said. And as for “blood libel”, it’s easy to believe how “alien” peoples who don’t share our religious beliefs–and therefore our morality–can engage in all sorts of bizzare and horrible practices once the rumors get started.
Actually, t-keela brings up a good point.
The idea that Jews somehow brought anti-semitism upon themselves is part of it. It’s all part of the myth of Jewish “hard-heartedness” or “obstinacy”.
There used to be a tradition (which lasted many centuries) whereby newly elected popes would walk down a road called Via Monte Giordano in Rome on their way to the basilica.
On the way the pope would halt the procession in order to receive a copy of the Pentateuch from Rome’s rabbi. The pope then returned the text upside down with twenty pieces of gold, proclaiming that, while he respected the Law of Moses, he disapproved of the hard hearts of the Jewish race.
It was an ancient view of the catholic church that, if Jews would only listen with open hearts to the arguments of the Christian faith, they would instantly see the error of their ways and convert.
This myth of Jewish “hard-heartedness” and Jewish “blindness” used to be contained in the catholic mass at Good Friday when the priest would pray for the “perfidious Jews” and ask that “our God and Lord would withdraw the veil from their hearts, that they may also acknowledge our Lord Jesus Christ”.
This prayer continued until Pope John 23rd abolished it.
However it’s important to remember that there is a difference between racist anti-semitism as practised by the Nazis and traditional catholic anti-Judaism (which dates back to the idea that the Jews killed Jesus, the Jews killed God).
The Nazis based their ideas on bogus “social darwinism” and the idea that Jewish genetic stock was biologically inferior, hence the warped logic that extermination would strengthen the Aryan race.
But racist notions have never formed part of orthodox Christianity. Christians, on the whole, ignored racial and national origin in the pursuit of converts.
sqweels said:
I’m not sure how true all this is.
During the middle ages (approx 13th century) Jews were denied social equality, banned from owning land, excluded from public office and most forms of trade. They had few alternatives to moneylending, which was strictly forbidden to Christians under church law.
Licensed to lend at strictly defined interest rates, the Jews became cursed as “bloodsuckers” and “usurers” living off the debts of Christians.
I think that’s where this particular anti-Jewish myth sprang from.
Both were different, living amongst the populace and unwilling to integrate. The reason why they were targeted doesn’t seem mysterious to me. Everywhere and at all times, people have actively searched for scapegoats, and these ones were perfectly convenient. Though the issue is probably different in modern times, I don’t think any other reason is needed to explain antisemitism historically. Of course, one can sear for a more detailled explanation and more accurate picture (re : the teachings of the catholic church, etc…). But “they aren’t like us” has always been a good enough reason for persecutions throughout history.
Sure. It is precisely because they were barred from certain pursuits that they forced themselves to excell at others (by “key aspects” I certainly meant to exclude land owning and government, but moneylending is certainly “key”). OTOH, it was often due to Jews’ skill at certain professions that they were barred from them, to keep them from competing. To speculate further with an example, Jews are known to be prominent in the diamond trade, and this could be because diamonds are a very portable kind of wealth. In the event of pogrom, you can quickly pocket them and hit the road.
Sure. It is precisely because they were barred from certain pursuits that they forced themselves to excell at others (by “key aspects” I certainly meant to exclude land owning and government, but moneylending is certainly “key”). OTOH, it was often due to Jews’ skill at certain professions that they were barred from them, to keep them from competing. To speculate further with an example, Jews are known to be prominent in the diamond trade, and this could be because diamonds are a very portable kind of wealth. In the event of pogrom, you can quickly pocket them and hit the road.
I was curious about whether my idea regarding Israel, anti-Semitism, and self-fulfilling prophesies were connected. So, I did a search. You would probably be surprised at the many sites regarding this. It is apparently a legitimate concern in the Jewish community according to several sources. Anyway, just thought I’d drop in for a sec. and see how y’all were doing. I’ll dig up some sites if anyone is interested, but not if I’m to be put on the defensive. This isn’t an argument.
Oh, Cap’n you’re right, there are many real examples of persecution towards the Jews. That’s the point, they have been victimized. The OP was why? I simply claimed it to be due to a self-fulfilling prophecy started by Israel upon itself that eventually transferred itself to other nations. This does not mean the events are not real. It just provides a reason why “the world” is against the Jews. Each example of persecution can be explained by the party responsible. But the primary cause for ALL of these cases can be linked to SELF (Israel). It’s been fun, but I gotta go.
see-ya-later
“it’s Margarita time”
I understand what you’re trying to say, I think, but I just seem to be missing a step. Your theory seems to be “Jews, at some point in history, think they’re cursed by G-d, so they do X, and then that transfers their idea that they’re cursed to their neighbors, who persecute them.” At least, that’s how I understand what you’re saying. My question is, what is X? Maybe I’m just misunderstanding what you’re saying, though, and you don’t really mean that.
I would like to see your sites, or maybe you could give me an example of what you’re talking about, using actual historical events.
Cap’n thought I’d stay w/ you awhile longer. Got me a Jose’ w/lime and a big stogie, so I’m set. Man, I got a few quick references to modern applications of s-f prophecies regarding anti-Semitism.
http://www.njg1.com/arthur6.htm (Jewish Gazette)
http://www.jewishpublicaffairs.org/community_relations/newsanalysis/lieberman_8-15-00 (Joe Lieberman)
http://mentalhelp.net/psyhelp/chap7/chap7l.htm (1/2 page down)
Hope these links work.
There’s several more out there, these just refer to current affairs.
Q: What historical event would you consider to be Israel’s first example of their persecution?
Here’s a good site:
Read the history of Israel and the curses, esp. the ones about breaking covenant and being war torn and exiled for it.
Also, pay close attention to the repeated proclamations of self blame for their offenses. Notice how the behavior of even a few “bad” Jews can condemn the whole. Now, if a nation held themselves up to this standard, with the belief in G_D’s curse as a punishment. It would be inevitable to fail for no one can be perfect, much less a nation. Thus Israel set itself to be condemned from the very beginning.
Take into consideration the religious zeal of our ancestors (not to mention the one’s today) But especially then, add to that the lack of self-esteem and efficacy found in a slave population. Sounds like the potential for a self-fulfilling prophecy to me.
The search engine for the cite above has many recent articles regarding WHY Israel is made to suffer.
gnight
Mark Twain addressed this question. He said that ill feelings against the Jews was the result of their success in business and the envy this incurred. He pointed out as evidence the fact that the Scots are not anti-Semitic. He admitted that there were only a few Jews in Scotland and that they would leave if they could but they could never save up enought money.
My own opinion is that, in general, they are not the most attractive people in the world.
I’ll check out the sites later today and let you know what I think. To answer your question, the earliest example I can think of is the Anitochine persecution.
A lot of modern American anti-semitism appears to me to stem from the purportedly efficient and effective American Jewish political lobby–Pat Buchanan’s “amen corner.”
I don’t expect you to believe some anonymous electrons floating on your monitor, but I have personally seen this brand of anti-semitism coming from Mr. Buchanan’s closest supporters. I have seen other quite decent people pick up and begin repeating the same sort of thing, apparently by osmosis.
I don’t know how it works, or why, but I am convinced that anti-semitism is alive and well today in America, and those who propagate it are sadly unaware that what they are doing is just the same old song in another key and tempo. Somehow, people are justifying in their own minds some difference between the political activism of Jewish Americans and the political activism of others such as farmers, defense contractors, and Enron executives. I don’t know what the hell that distinction is, or how someone can create such an artificial thing, but I see it and it scares the piss out of me.
I would divide the historical emnity toward Jews into three phases which, I would argue, have little to do with one another:
- The “Victim of Empires” phases, which lasted up thru the 79 C.E. diaspora.
- The “Christian Era” which lasted thru the Holocaust and still lingers.
- The Arab-Israeli conflict.
In Phase 1 the Jews, like countless other nations, were swallowed up by the great empires which swept through the region. Unlike most, which were completely forgotten by history, the Jews preserved their culture thru writings and tradition and repeatedly won their independance, which set the stage for being swallowed up by the next empire to come along. I would say that this process had little to do with any specific dislikes that could be characterized as “anti-Semitism” rather, they were a weak nation who occupied a strategic strip of land, althogh their resistance to assimilation was a key factor.
Phase 2 I dealt with in my earlier posts, and was driven by religious differences between Jews and Christians, and often manifested itself as resentment over an “alien” people becoming rich and successful.
Phase 3 we’re all too familiar with in the headlines and on this board. A Europeanized people invaded the Middle East and took land that Arabs had been living on for centuries; it’s that simple. The significance of the religious differences is called into question by the fact that many Palestinian Arabs are Christians, who should be no more compatible with Muslims than Jews should be.
The one thing I’m not sure about is where to classify African-American anti-Semitism, phase 2 or 3. AS among black Muslims can be indirectly linked to the Middle East, but most blacks are Christians and resentment of Jews is based on uequal economic relationships, since many blacks find themselves with Jewish bosses, Jewish landlords, etc.
I don’t know about the historical accuracy of this event, but that is irrelevant if the masses believe it faithfully.
Abraham is the first reference I’ve found regarding the persecution of Israel. When he destroyed all the idols he could and proclaimed everyone else to be ignorant and that he knew the one true G-d personally. King Nimrod supposedly threw him into a furnace and said, “Let’s see your God save you now.”
http://www.aish.com/holidays/passover/articlesabrahams_legacy.asp
Damn if it don’t sound like he was just asking for trouble.