Why are Jews so hated?

Great Debates
41

I don’t know about the historical accuracy of this event, but that is irrelevant if the masses believe it faithfully.

Abraham is the first reference I’ve found regarding the persecution of Israel. When he destroyed all the idols he could and proclaimed everyone else to be ignorant and that he knew the one true G-d personally. King Nimrod supposedly threw him into a furnace and said, “Let’s see your God save you now.”

http://www.aish.com/holidays/passover/articles/abrahams_legacy.asp

Damn if it don’t sound like he was just asking for trouble.

42

Well, the historical accuracy of Abraham and Nimrod is relevant, because this discussion is about why actual anti-semitism exists. Therefore, I don’t know if a Jewish legend about Abraham is entirely relevant, because the persecutors of Jews don’t believe it faithfully. Lets take an actual historical example of anti-semitic persecution and look at the circumstances behind that…for example, the slaughter of Jewish communities on the Rhine by Crusaders going to the Middle East. How does your model fit that?

I’d say that, in a case like that, whether the Jews of Western Germany saw the crusaders as G-d’s punishment for their sins, or not, they were unable to do anything, either legally or militarily, to stop the mobs. So, at that point, Jewish actions were irrelevant. What was relevant was the motivation of the mob, and to find that out, I don’t see why you would look at Jewish opinions about whether or not, and if so, why Jews should be persecuted. You need to look at Gentile opinions about whether or not, and if so, why Jews should be persecuted, because, when anti-semitism exists, it tends to be Gentiles who are the ones initiating actions. I don’t think Jews really bear responsibility for the prejudice and discrimination.

43

I say the accuracy of this event isn’t relevent because the generations immediately after this event taught it as an example of their persecution.

“See what evil deeds we have endured” (immediate identification as a victim.)

I understand what you are saying and don’t disagree that nations have done terrible things to the Jewish people. Things that are not directly related to their actions. Even though the perpetrators always have an excuse.

The point is in trying to find some primary cause for ALL of these events. It doesn’t make sense to claim everyone (in general) hates the Jews and then start looking for a specific reason for each and every occurance (since the beginning of civilization). Because no individual or (state) can DIRECTLY affect everyone else to the level of which we are referring.

I feel like I’m beating a dead horse now. I keep reinforcing the idea that YES the Jews have actually suffered these many atrocities that everyone has spoken of. But no one has actually given a reason for these atrocities. Other than a few examples like “they killed Jesus” or “they wouldn’t leave Babylon” or they’re greedy etc. etc.

Those are excuses to justify an immoral and unacceptable prejudice towards a people who have survived longest of all and have done less harm than most. (current affairs aside)

Excuses are not reasons, I think the reason is because Israel has historically set itself up from the beginning as the moral compass of the world. That they (as a nation) could not live up to the laws of Judaism and as a result (as prophesied) in their own scripture, convinced themselves that they are cursed.

This belief, which is prominant in Jewish history, manifested itself in several ways in the very beginning of the “curse”, examples are numerous in ancient history and scripture. Enslavery, genocide and exile reduced their self respect and the world’s view towards Israel.

Victims often see themselves as deserving their abuse or mistreatment. This in turn perpetuates the abuse. The abuse just changed from a curse to persecution. It is no longer God doing the bad stuff, it’s the whole world. But there is always the idea that we deserve what’s coming (old ideas die hard) You can find references to this line of thought in modern society.

I know lots of people that believe God punishes them and that if something bad happens it’s because of something they did. Also, many people think that good things happen to good people and that prayers can change events.

So, if the world thinks the Jews are worthy of abuse and the Jews feel the same way. (historically speaking) The prophecy of Gods curse discussed in the Torah is self-fulfilling. We just make up reasons to justify our behavior.

Side note: Many races have been abused throughout history. Most can be isolated to a period which had a beginning and an end. Reasons can be found for most usually money! Prejudice and bigotry has been w/ man for EVER? probably

This endless persecution goes far beyond “normal” prejudices. You don’t kill the gggggggreat grandson of some one who happens to be the same religion as someone who may or may not have done something to somebody you never knew!

We just MAKE UP reasons to justify our actions.

damned PC starting to freakout on me, so I’m gonna post now and I guess that’s about all I can do here, apparently I’m not going to be able to make myself clear. That’s okay though, it’s been good for me!

Y’all take care and PEACE :slight_smile:

44

You should have re-read this thread before making this comment.
sqweels mentioned general religious antipathy (not the specific “Christ-killer” nonsense, but the general opposition of conflicting religions–examples would include Antiochus, Nero, Domitian, the Zoroastrains, and others besides Christians).
clairobscur addressed the issue of integration (vs the restraint from assimilation practiced by the Jewish community and the direct correlation to the Rom).
Several posters in the threads to which I linked noted that the conflicts have arisen in specific religious context on nearly all occasions. CK Dexter Haven has called attention to the fact that persecutions generally do not arise in pluralistic societies. (As an example, I would note that persecution in Eastern Europe–where paganism was rather swiftly overthrown–began as early as the fifth century, whereas persecution (as opposed to periodic conflict) did not begin in Western Europe until the twelfth century–shortly after paganism had been overwhelmed, leaving Christianity in control.)

So, rather than ‘“they killed Jesus” or “they wouldn’t leave Babylon”’ we have a fairly clear pattern of conflict arising when the majority population perceived the failure of the Jewish religious community to assimilate with the rest of the populace. The single exception would be the period of the mid nineteenth through the twentieth centuries–by which time the patterns of discrimination in Christian Europe had already been enshrined in law throughout the European nations. (One might even make a case that, as nationalism replaced Christianity as the prime religious motivator throughout that same period, the religious conflict continued, simply transferred from the churches to the government offices. (Debating “nationalism is religious in nature” is a hijack I will not pursue, here.))

Now, there could possibly be a factor of “we deserve to be punished” leading to actions that invite the persecution. However, you have not demonstrated the actual cause and effect of that hypothesis. In order to do so, you will also need to indicate why the Jews living in pluralistic societies (sometimes for hundreds of years) did not invoke the same level of persecution.

I would tend to suspect that once the persecutions had begun, some Jews might look to Scripture to find the cause of their suffering and then express their belief that they were being punished. In other words, I suspect that you have exactly reversed the order of cause and effect.

45

Well put, Tom,

46

Jewish scripture is a mixed bag. It says the Jews will be cursed if they turn away from God, but it also says that God will abolish the natural laws govening the behavior of the sun, moon and stars before He stops loving the Jews. Like Christianity, Judaism says that God punishes sin, but He is also kind and merciful. I don’t think it preaches self-condemnation any more than many other religions which haven’t been persecuted.