I suspect it had something to do with ritual purity and bronze age religious rituals - somehow the notion that eating things alive was just plain wrong entered the mix. You are allowed to be cruel to animals under the Noahide laws, you just can’t eat 'em while they live.
If you encounter a company that feels highly biased toward advancement of any religious or other group you are not a part of I would suggest you work there only as long as you have to. There are hyper-Christian companies out there, (eg, Chic-Fil-a) that as an atheist I would feel very much unlikely to succeed in just based on not sharing the ra-ra jesus thing with them and being sniffed out as not on the team. My emphasis is that there are per capita of business venture more religiously and nepotistically biased companies within those founded and managed by Jewish people. This isn’t necessarily stupid of Jews to do, but it does foster distrust and animosity between them and non-jews. I’m sure many modern Jews have felt discrimination on some level and are rightfully unhappy about it.
In modern times Reform denominations have begun accept converts, though this is probably mostly for people with a genealogical Jewish background who don’t have the records necessary to prove it. This almost certainly would not be enough to allow you to emigrate to Isreal like other Jews and most of the Jewish world still considers you a second class Jew or not one at all even if they’re officially forbidden in reform circles from saying so openly. That is if you get past the snide affronts of the synagogue you try to join. This is pretty recent in any case and the lack of proselytizing and unenthusiastic begrudging acceptance of new members by the most liberal denominations isn’t going to do much to counteract the sociological fundamentals at work.
Certainly we can point to any number of objectively ugly reasons for anti-semitism but again I feel like these would be mitigated were the Jewish religion designed more like the other major religions in it’s methods of recruitment. Not saying that’s right or anything, just that it is.
Sounds to me like a perfect example of a “fact” that is simply “known” (i.e., a stereotype).
This is simply flat out untrue. Even the Orthodox Jews accept converts. Albeit, you have to become Orthodox like they are. The Law of Return does not exclude converts.
Wait, you think that the fact that the Jews don’t actively recruit is the cause of anti-Semitism?
Sort of, if I can’t join 'em, I might as well beat 'em?
There was a poster here who left a job because she couldn’t take the discrimination as the only goy who worked at that small business… I never understand why they hired her in the first place, though. But saying that Jewish insularity is why Christians have persecuted them for 2,000 years has to be the most ridiculous thing I have ever heard…Christian majority victimhood would be utterly hilarious if it wasn’t so harmful to society. Imagine if these same Christians actually WERE victimized minorities, you would never be able to hear yourself think over all the whining.
I’ve known a lot of Jewish people, maaaybe my sample size is giving me inaccurate results (though I doubt outside the margin of error), but I doubt it. Most of them have gone to work after college for the companies of their families or other jewish-run companies they have connections to through synagogue, school or acquaintance. The non-jewish people I have known have been fairly all over them map in this regard with a small minority getting this kind of preferential treatment in the labor market. Sometimes something is a stereotype because it’s the general truth. Eg “Jews are smart.”, (by group American jews are better educated than the average American). Of course there are exceptions and even a large subgroup of any population but when I speak about trends it’s irrelevant.
From your own source:
“It is a commitment that cannot be made without extensive thought, learning and preparation. The process of conversion to Judaism is a lengthy one. Before a beit din (rabbinic court) will approve the conversion, its members must be positive that you are fully knowledgeable and committed to observing all of the laws and precepts of Judaism, that you are fully integrated into the Jewish way of life and are comfortable in the Jewish community – that you will be able to live a full, happy and productive life as a Jew.”
“A potential candidate must find a Sponsoring Rabbi, who will serve as the liaison to and make the initial contact with the regional beit din. Any Orthodox rabbi may serve as a Sponsoring Rabbi. A Sponsoring Rabbi may only sponsor someone who lives in his or her own community, with whom he is personally familiar, and whom he is confident in recommending as a candidate. If a potential candidate does not live in an Orthodox community he or she must move in to one as part of the conversion process. The respective batei din and the central office are available to assist in locating sponsoring rabbis.”
There’s a difference between allowing something to happen on rare occasions as a token to tolerance and being open-armed and the real world result of incredibly difficult standards, procedures and personal sacrifice that create a result that very very few tokens will actually be produced.
I’m sorry, but “I’ve known a lot of Jews” isn’t a good source. I mean, every person who holds to stereotypes thinks they are justified because, golly gee, they know people who fit the stereotype to a “T”! - that is why stereotypes persist, whether they have any truth to them or not.
Unless you actually have some objective proof that (say) Jews as a group are likely to on a “per capita of business venture [create] more religiously and nepotistically biased companies”, you don’t, in point of fact, know it. It sounds to me more like a stereotype you picked up and confirmation bias.
Your anecdotes concerning Jews you know are just that - anecdotes. I am pretty convinced I know more Jews than you, and my anecdotes don’t agree with yours. Does that mean I win?
Orthodox Jews do nothing as a “token of tolerance”. You are completely misreading their position and concerns.
If you knew anything about the Orthodox, you would know they care not a whit for what outsiders think, when it comes to religious matters. Their primary concern, always, is with religious integrity (for good or bad).
Of course they don’t want people to convert unless they are willing to (if you will excuse the expression in context) go whole hog. Judaism is not a religion of belief, it is a religion of actions - particularly, living a certain way of life. They don’t want someone to be Jewish unless they are willing to do that.
In any event, the whole notion is absurd. Why would people who hate Jews not hate them if it were easier for them to become Jews? Is violent anti-semitism sort of (in some people’s theories) violent homophobia, that the people who hate Jews really, deep down, want to be Jews and are lashing out in frustration?
On the first point about anecdotes I suppose finding data on that is going to be near impossible without doing it ourselves, so we’ll call that a tie. I’m going to assume you apply the same skepticism to your own “knowing more Jews” thesis.
On the orthodox conversion points A: Doesn’t really matter how they justify it, the result is the same. People born Jewish are never questioned even if they’re pretty much atheists because Jews consider themselves part of a race not just a religion.
As far as the notion being absurd the line you’re taking is to test it logically in a very immediate sense. The problem is anti-semitism is very old, and the reasons for it are organic. When you recruit people from all walks of society around you the result is that most people wind up knowing someone who is of your religion, most people are related to someone in your religion. The insularity falls off because converts are exposing the identity of your religion all the time to people all over the society and many more mixtures of identity occur. The stereotypical characteristics become less reliably true and the cliche attacks have less bite. This happens over many many generations. It’s simply the nature of humanity .
Also I suppose that it does happen that people try to become Jewish and have failed or have not tried because they have been told it’s very difficult or impossible and that they wont be considered a real Jew. Anyone with this experience I imagine would have pretty negative views that they would spread afterward about Jews. Fair or not it doesn’t help the group much.
I’m not making an assertion about Jews (or non-Jews). Usually, it’s the person making the assertion that has to provide proof.
I am simply pointing out that anecdote in this area is not proof. The fact that you cannot provide any evidence for your assertion is not a “tie” any more than the fact that believers cannot provide evidence for the existence of God is a “tie”.
Well, more accurately a tribe. The difference is that race is tied to genetic identity. You can be Black and be a Jew.
Also, you can be adopted by a tribe (i.e., by “conversion”, which is slightly different than converting to a belief-based system). You cannot, Michael Jackson aside, change your race.
Another difference is that the Jewish tribal identity is generally considered matrilinial.
All of which is to say that Judaism is somewhat different from (say) Christianity or Islam. In Islam, for example, conversion is simple - you just announce it. That’s because the essence of Islam is submission to God. In Judaism, you have to in effect be adopted by the tribe - a lot more involved.
I guess that explains why there are few troubles between Muslims and Christians then, since conversion in both cases is relatively easy.
You are the one proposing that something that is a stereotype is not true, it is also not metaphysical. You are the one with the greater burden of poof.
Again the reasons why make no difference to the result or make them more justifiable. Every bad policy has had justifications. Black Jews are easy. Black man procreates with Jewish woman, Viola.
So you’re saying Jews aren’t any more hated than Christians or Muslims? Kind of defeats the topic.
Your continued insistance that Jew haters are frustrated wannabe Jews continues to puzzle me. While there may be one or two out there drawn to the lifestyle, I cannot think, absent (again) some sort of evidence, that this demograohic is truly a major factor.
I didn’t say that was the majority of it. I said it didn’t help. The biggest problem is not gaining members dispersed throughout the community they live in, but if it helps your argument to distort the weight of the things I’ve said..
All you offered were your “examples.” Examples out of context are known as baiting in this sort of discussion.
I did not dismiss Ginsberg’s thesis as silly. I dismissed your misinterpretation of Ginsberg’s thesis as silly.
As to your desperate need to try to elevate the Jews’ participation in any antagonism beyond the “little to nothing” that is its true level, I dismiss it, as well. There have been a few rare occasions when Jews, as a group, have actively and deliberately antagonized Christians. The most recent one that I recall occurred around 90 in Asia Minor. In pretty much every other case, Jews were made scapegoats because they were a visible minority or they were condemned for having the audacity to fail to convert to Christianity or Islam.
You are simply full of mistinterpretations, from your distortion of Ginsberg’s thesis to your repeated use of straw man fallacies when incorrectly paraphrasing my comments. I did not say that there was no connection between (some) Jews and communism. I noted that the connection is not the reason behind anti-semitism, but merely an ad hoc excuse some people employ to rationalize their hatred for Jews.
That puts me ahead of you, then. Not advancing an argument is far superior to advancing an awful one. I mean, seriously…
You started by using the Fallacy of Anecdote, went to the Fallacy of Shifting the Burden of Proof by claiming that someone had to disprove (anti-Semitic) stereotypes, then claimed that there’s somehow a “greater burden of proof” to disprove anti-Semitic stereotypes that you can’t even support in the first place, claimed that despite the fact that you have no statistical evidence at all, the fact that you have some friends who are Jews is somehow “tied” with the fact that someone’s pointed out that you haven’t actually carried the burden of proof and that the plural of anecdote isn’t evidence. And you’ve still maintained the argument that making conversion difficult is somehow causing or contributing to anti-Semitism. How much statistical data do you have to back that up, exactly? How many people do you think are trying to beat down synagogue doors in order to join the tribe?
So yah. Even if I said nothing, I’d still end up ahead of your argument in this thread.