Why are men who hate and reject masculinity ‘misandrists’ almost non-existent?

Great Debates
1

In the media and in real life, misogyny is said to cause gender inequality for women in the developed world and second class citizens or at worst sub human in developing countries. Misogyny is the driving force behind domestic violence, rape & sexual assaults, and FGM. The list is extensive. But surprisingly ‘misogynistic’ women are also found in large numbers. I placed quotes around the word because I don’t consider this form of misogyny an actual self-hatred of being a woman or woman in general but a belief of inferiority in comparison to men. Apparently this is why some women in Africa circumcise young girls.

Misogyny is not clearly not just exclusive to men, a good number of women (not the majority of women however), express it. But what about the hatred of men? I don’t think that beliefs are common at all in both genders or ever translate to actual criminal violence against men. Most hatred of men comes those who are female. But it’s seems to be only restricted to radical feminists who hate men that refuse to pander to their point of view. ‘I hate men and refuse to date or be friends with them’ feminists simply are an extraordinary rarity.

Now where are the group of misandrist men? Who hate the perceived restrictions of being a man (‘manning up/toughening up’ attitudes, chivalrous attitudes towards women, restrictive expressions, strict ideals of domination and aggression in parenting, teaching male disposability)? Who refuse to be friends with males who identify as masculine? All men’s rights/liberation movements I have seen tend to be pro healthy masculinity rather than just disseminate this idea that men have to be anything.

The reason I ask is mainly because when watching documentaries on the Isla Vista shooter (Virgin Killer)Elliot Rodger, his motivations seem to stem from not being seen as an ‘alpha male’ towards other women. The general theme from other mass shootings in the US is that ‘toxic masculinity’ seems to be an issue since the most prominent killers have all been young males. Mass shootings are described by psychoanalysts as a masculinity crisis. Why I wonder though, has there never been an Elliot Rodger figure who is ‘anti-masculinity’. A feminine (not girly) man person who despises ‘masculine’ men and women who pander to gender roles in men. Basically a guy who hates gender essentialism, those who support it, believe it corrupts women to become misogynistic, and goes on a violent shooting spree to rid this.

What do you guys (and gals) think? What’s the explanation? Is the observation true or are there flaws in the premise?

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If you’re in a position of power, there’s little to no reason to give this power up. A lot easier to beat up those below you on the totem pole. When it really comes down to it, people are animals- and you don’t see too many vegan lions.

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Lots of men feel conflicted about masculine behavior, as expressed in the song “Manly” on Daria.

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May I ask what positions of power males are granted? Social, economic, legal?

5

You use the word “hate” and “despise” and “misogyny”, which you seem to equate with “hatred”. IMHO that perception is inaccurate and muddies the thinking. A person who likes being dominant does not hate those that they consider as subordinate. Instead, they simply like the power dynamics and don’t wish to change it. I would submit that the women you cast as misogynists also do not hate women, instead they simply like the power dynamics in place where men are primary and women are secondary. My main point is that it is useful to understand that liking something does not automatically mean you hate something else.

Expanding that to your primary question, men who would prefer to avoid succumbing to masculinity socialization are not also required to actively “hate” masculinity or men.

I’m curious why you think things are so binary and all-or-nothing? (Fallacy or the excluded middle, maybe?)

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I suppose hate is a strong word. Maybe Elliot Rodger individuals are hateful. Perhaps a male who ‘intensely dislikes’ the concept of man and masculinity is what I’m getting to. Up to the point where they prefer relationships with women and not masculine men

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I think there are plenty of “manly” men who don’t necessarily buy into ALL the trappings of traditional macho masculine behavior.

But few probably “hate” it in the sense that they want to throw out the baby with the bath water. Instead, they want to keep the positive aspects and modify or eliminate the less positive ones.

For example, chivalrous attitudes toward women aren’t something we want to get rid of, but just maybe tweak them a little bit for the modern world so that they’re more an expression of respect than something that could be read as condescension.

While I’d hardly call them “misandrist”, I’d say that some of what you describe is already going on among some gay men, who pretty much give the finger to normal gender roles and stereotypes without being trans or anything. I mean, a couple of friends of mine wore matching suits and ties to their wedding, but one of them wore heels too. Why? Because he DNGAF about whether that’s manly or not. He paints his nails, and on occasion, wears makeup. But at the same time, he’s a civil engineer, is really good at home improvement construction type projects and likes to watch football.

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Not to my knowledge. This would be a fairly sophisticated worldview for a mass shooter. With few exceptions, most of these men don’t strike me as deep thinkers. Of those who are, the sort who leave detailed manifestos, they often seem to prefer more traditional gender roles.

This may be controversial, it’s just an idea I cooked up on the spot, but the types of men who commit mass violence might be higher in testosterone, higher in aggression, low in empathy, and lower in impulse control. That sort of man is less likely to have such a liberal or, for lack of a better term, feminized way of thinking. It’s also a bit self defeating. You hate masculinity, so you’ll use stereotypical masculine violence to stop it?

Alternatively, or in addition, men just don’t care about feminism that much. If they’re driven to commit violence it’ll be for something else.

Feminists have different POVs on essentialism. Radfems are sometimes criticized for being essentialist. That’s a whole other rabbit hole.

The reason women separate from men is to avoid violence, threats, leering, sexual comments, possessiveness, gas lighting, and so on. These mostly aren’t reasons for men to avoid other men.

As a political movement, you’re describing lesbian separatism. Most radfems are straight women. The degree they participate in the system can lead to heated debates. One old quote, said with varying degrees of seriousness, is that feminists can never dismantle the patriarchy because they sleep with the enemy. The alternate view is they have to engage with men to ultimately change anything.

I have seen radfems say that men should disassociate themselves from misogynists, or those who talk positively about pornography and more culturally accepted ways of demeaning women.

You can find many men who are upset with Western traditions of masculinity. But the refusal of “masculine” male friends I don’t think I’ve ever seen described as a political strategy, nor did it ever occur to me. You might find a man like that on the fringes of Tumblr or super lefty radfem blogs, but it would take some digging.

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waves at OP Hi I’m Kobal2, quite male if I say so myself, and a staunch misandrist. Most guys are cunts, macho guys are cuntier. MRA types are the cuntiest.

I hate male stereotypes (“you don’t like soccer ? Weird” ; “real men don’t cry or show emotions” ; “Hairy and slovenly is manly” etc…). Hate the beefcake aesthetic, hate the way guys talk about women like they’re pieces of meat (or, worse, cars), hate cars too. And whiskey. And sports. I know fuck all about engines or home repair or hunting and don’t plan on learning.

I used to think that if women were looking for decent, “unmanly” blokes ; they could seek out geeks. But then Gamergate happened and oh boy did my eyes open. Geeks are even worse and vitriolic about their rampant misogyny.

10

I would say there are certainly men who take up the cause of feminism and agree with its depiction of patriarchy and traditional masculinity as negative and in need of change. It gets a bit complicated because such men are sometimes accused of only pretending to agree as a means of ingratiating themselves with women. (I’m sure that some are pretending, but that some are sincere, too.) I think it’s visible in things like the Duke lacrosse case; it was easy to believe the accuser because her story is just the kind of thing that rich, privileged, frat-boy, college athletes would do.[sup]*[/sup] It wasn’t just women who believed it. The case was prosecuted by Mike Nifong, who was disbarred because of it. Or consider the case of Walter Palmer, the Minnesota dentist who shot Cecil the lion in Zimbabwe. Trophy hunting in Africa used to be the pinnacle of manliness, but Palmer was resoundingly condemned by men and women alike.

As for why they don’t go on rampages like Elliot Rodger, probably lots of reasons. marshmallow already said that someone who disdains such notions of masculinity is hardly likely to lash out in such a traditionally masculine way. I also think there’s a different degree of desperation. Feminism has made, and continues to make, progress. Even if it hasn’t achieved all that they want, it’s easier to stay hopeful if you think things are trending in the right direction. Anti-feminists are feeling themselves pushed backwards, and that’s a recipe for anger and desperation.

  • I’m not trying to excuse actual rapes. They shouldn’t happen at all. When they do, they should be taken seriously, investigated, and prosecuted. I’m just talking about the ease with which we believe that men could do something so horrific.
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I would differentiate between different tranches of masculinity.

There are preoccupations that are perceived as male: many sports, discussing women, cars and technical skills, beer, cigars, you know the tropes. Most of these things are great. I don’t care if you don’t like football, etc, your loss.

There are things that males in some cultures see as feminine: cooking, cleaning, raising children, wearing pink, etc. You know the tropes.

Males usually bond by doing things together and insulting their friends and others. Not many years ago, eating a salad or cooking a meal would earn you some ribbing. Wearing pink shoes or using makeup probably still does in most circles.

Macho attitudes like getting angry with little provocation, talking loudly and constantly and man spreading (which is what jerks who believe they are “alpha” often do) can be annoying. I don’t want to fight you since I ordered a Guinness or like the Canadiens, though both denote excellent taste.

I know many men who don’t really believe in equal opportunity for women, though few would say so brazenly and most would deny being misogynist.

Most misandrists I know are women who have had bad experiences. Males who challenge some masculine tropes often consider themselves manly in other ways. I don’t know many male misandrists, you’re right, though I know many who would challenge certain stereotypes while strongly embracing others.

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For me, the core of feminism is equality. Equal pay, equal opportunity, equal rights including the right to do what she wants (within reason, law and ethics) with her baby or body or vocation without undue coercion. I work in a field which has very masculine values and attitudes, occasionally to the point of slight toxicity, but with plenty of feminine perspective. I’ve had plenty of co-workers decry “too much estrogen” for all sorts of reasons, but it’s often a plus. Anyone can be hyper competitive or narcissistic.

(Reminds me of Bob Dylan, for no reason…

Equality, I spoke the word, as if a wedding vow. But I was so much older then, I’m younger than that now.)

I don’t see much misandry, but I see more misanthropy. Some people are just plain miserable to deal with. I think many misogynists are probably just misanthropes.

14

I’ve never understood why someone would be a misogynist. I understand hating males since they can be aggressively dominating in many aspects of life and manifest that in criminal or non criminal activity but hating women?

I think people who hate women actually hate the fact that they are submissive to men who cause problems for them and their children. I can’t understand how someone can hate a law abiding, non violently aggressive, intelligent, rational, liberal, and open minded woman. Why would anyone assault, rape, or kill such a woman? What would you get out of it? It beat’s my understanding.

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Because that woman threatens them, who might be less intelligent, rational, liberal or open-minded. Feeling inferior is already difficult to live with, feeling inferior to a *woman *is worse for these knuckleheads who cling to their masculinity like it’s the only thing they got going for them. Which it often is, not that it’s much of a thing of course.